Combat to Care: Infantryman Turned Holistic Wellness Practitioner w/Tony McCloskey

Jeff Nesbitt: [: 00:00:00

My guest today is Tony McCloskey. Tony is an acupuncturist working out of long beach Washington.

Jeff Nesbitt: We talk a little bit about alternative health, like the Eastern medicine,

Jeff Nesbitt: traditional Chinese herbalism and that kind of stuff. Acupuncture.

Jeff Nesbitt: and we also talk about some of the differences and the reasons why some of the issues with the Western model can be relieved by incorporating some alternative techniques. It's pretty. I myself have been receiving treatment from Tony and I've really benefited a lot from it.

Jeff Nesbitt: If you have not tried acupuncture before, I highly recommend you check him out. He's really good and he's really affordable. I was really impressed with how affordable it was cuz he really takes his time. It's not a get in get out type of thing.

a few hours. It's he invests [: 00:01:00

Jeff Nesbitt: You can also find me on TikTok at Jeff underscore Nesbitt 88.

Jeff Nesbitt: If you're a member of The Patreon channel Ramble by the River's Royal Ramblers, or our Ramble Dabblers, you may have noticed that you were not charged for this month for Patreon, and that was because I didn't put anything out, so I, I turned off the billing for a month and we will resume when I start putting the content back on there.

ering for some Ramble on the [: 00:02:00

Jeff Nesbitt: we've got a great show today, so I'm not gonna drag my feet and Ramble on all day here in the intro. Just a quick message from our sponsor and we'll get right to the show.

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Jeff Nesbitt: My guest today is an acupuncturist he is a former army infantryman and a former lpn, which is a licensed practical nurse.

Jeff Nesbitt: He dropped by today to talk about the military industrial complex. Psychology, masculinity, healthcare, and several other things. We get into ai, we talk about music. I get all sad and emotional talking about my dead dog. Again, and it's a good show.

great guy and he does a good [: 00:05:00

Jeff Nesbitt: [00:00:00] So

Jeff Nesbitt: Recorder is going . All righty. Welcome to Ramble by the River, the show where we figure it out as we go. Okay. Um, but yeah, so those are completely optional. If you're not gonna use them though, I'll unplug them so we don't get feedback. Okay.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah, that's a little bit distracting for me, so totally

Jeff Nesbitt: fine.

Jeff Nesbitt: Okay. Totally fine. All right. . I'm just not used to it. . Yeah. No, I don't, I don't blame you. The, I actually love the way it sounds now, but the, it, it's a bit of a learning curve. Mm-hmm. took some getting used to, cuz it does sound very weird when you're just in your own

Tony McCloskey: head.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. The Fidelity's great though, you know, like, it's, it's clear signature.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, it sounds, it sounds nice. Yeah. The, uh, these, I like these mics. They're Sure, sure. Pretty good. So how's your day going?

Tony McCloskey: So far so good. Yeah. Yeah. I had the day off today, so, uh oh. Yeah. Yeah. It's always nice, uh, from

Jeff Nesbitt: both, both

Tony McCloskey: of your jobs.

Uh, um, I have a tendency to [: 00:01:00

Jeff Nesbitt: good nap in? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. .

Tony McCloskey: When I can. I do for sure. So are you an easy sleeper? Uh, most of the time I would say, yeah. Occasionally, uh, you know, something's bugging, but most of the time I think I sleep pretty good.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah,

Jeff Nesbitt: that's pretty important for overall. Yeah. Foundational even I feel like when I'm not sleeping good, nothing else even, uh, matters. Like you can't start from no foundation. Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I mean, our restoration time is, is huge and it really, it affects everything, you know, like our physical energy, our mental energy.

Tony McCloskey: And, um, I have, uh, seen a lot of people that can't sleep well and, uh, it really, I. I feel for them. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? It's, it's not an easy lifestyle to have, you know, you know, chronic insomnia or, or those kind of

re just even like a month or [: 00:02:00

Jeff Nesbitt: No.

Tony McCloskey: No. That's so lucky. Yeah. I feel pretty fortunate. Yeah.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. I don't even remember the last time I had like a long stretch of like several days in a row of real. It's been years, um, definitely since my daughter was born and she'll be five in March. Uh, but yeah, it's, I miss those. When I was rowing in college, I would have every, every minute that was available for me to sleep, I was getting quality sleep.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , I would fall asleep the second my head hit the pillow and I would, uh, just sleep solid and I just cherished. I remember I would go to bed with a big smile on my face cuz I'm like, I'm here again. I made it back. Yes. Mm-hmm. because those long days where you just with college and everything is just so hard.

emotions with other people. [: 00:03:00

Jeff Nesbitt: and it's way less in my control. When, when I was a young, in my twenties and college and stuff, everything's in my control even though I had no money. You just, like, your life is your own and once kids are involved, you're scrambled. Yeah. And I, I haven't slept good really since then.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I think it's easier to focus when.

Tony McCloskey: you know, um, all, all that. And then, you know, when you have that in your life, it's, uh, it's a lot of extra consideration. Mm-hmm. , you know, and, uh, and you need to be present with all of it all the time, you know? And, uh, yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's, it can be a struggle for a lot of people, you know, but it also means that you care about what's going on in your life, and you care about, um, the decisions that, and your responsibilities that are, you're involved with.

efinitely a good way to keep [: 00:04:00

Jeff Nesbitt: too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I really notice a difference if you do that. Just lounge about, have a sleep, sleep in, have a nap, you know, let your body actually just rest. Mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: how do, how does your head feel when you do that? Do you, do you struggle with relaxing or are you able to just check out and just enjoy the recovery? Um,

Tony McCloskey: uh, gosh, I mean, in what context? My head, like, like

Jeff Nesbitt: do for example, a lot of people, when it finally comes time to relax after working all the time, like you working multiple jobs and just having stuff going on all the time, when it is finally time to relax, it can be hard to just let yourself unwind and lean into it.

gonna do with my day. End up [: 00:05:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I, I know a lot of people who struggle with that.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I mean it's, it's an energetic drain just worry. Worry. Yeah. In and of itself. And, um, yeah, I think. You know, to answer that question, there are times where if I'm worried about getting enough sleep, it will disrupt my sleep. You know, like if I'm, uh, had a long day and I have to get up early, um, you know, uh, I, the clock's ticking, right?

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Like you're looking and you're like, oh God, I only got five hours. I need to make this happen. Like now, like yesterday,

Jeff Nesbitt: uh, sleep math is the worst. Cuz then you feel that shot of cortisol, right? When you have that thought like, oh, I better hurry. Yeah. Like, no, you can't hurry up to

Tony McCloskey: sleep. You can't, you can't.

ional after like four hours. [: 00:06:00

Tony McCloskey: And then anything more is definitely a luxury. but yeah, most of the time, , unless there is some precedence to get up in, in a certain amount of time, I just kind of ease into it or have my little routine sometimes. Uh, you know, recently it's been a lot of meditation, like that's my breathing techniques and stuff are the things that I, I fall back on Before, um, I got into all that, it was like movies.

Tony McCloskey: I had certain movies that would always put me out, like within Yeah.

Jeff Nesbitt: Stuff you've seen a thousand times.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I remember Lord of the Rings when it very first came out, like the first one it was just like, I never made it out of the Shire and I was out like, guaranteed.

Tony McCloskey: And so

Jeff Nesbitt: that is a good one for that. It'll put you right out. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's the, it's like twinkly and peaceful, the beginning at least.

d that as a kid. So, uh, are [: 00:07:00

Jeff Nesbitt: you a big sci-fi fantasy person? Reader? Do you read still?

Tony McCloskey: Uh, not

Jeff Nesbitt: so much anymore. I, I also, I should caveat that I count listening to books as reading. Yeah. I don't, I say that most of the time, but some people are like, oh, that's not reading. But it is. Yeah, you're getting it in there. Mm-hmm. doesn't stick as well, but it definitely still counts. But anyway.

Jeff Nesbitt: Are you a book, book person still?

Tony McCloskey: Uh, not so much. You know, I, I think once I started hitting college pretty hard, uh, you know, the last thing I ever wanted to do in my spare time was read more, you know? So, yeah. Uh, I haven't transitioned out of that mindset yet, although I hope to take it up at some point.

Tony McCloskey: I mean, I remember finding a lot of, um, a lot of value outta my reading when I was younger. You know, there's

Jeff Nesbitt: a lot there. It's fertile ground. Mm. What about nonfiction? Like for, I'm sure you have to do continuing education stuff for your, for your acupuncture work. Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Just to keep yourself fresh. Yeah. I think most of my readings really kind of focused on that.

y: , if I do have the luxury [: 00:08:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Yeah. Educational. Mm-hmm. . Okay. So that's actually a good place to go. I like your story of how you came from kind of the standard Western medical model and, and you, you got your education there and you learned a lot probably, and then you didn't necessarily, well, I'll let you tell it, but you ended up in a completely different place mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: uh, what one would think has a similar goals, like of both of those systems, but it's, it's drastically different in practice and in experience. Absolutely. Uh, could you just go into that whole, uh, saga of like how you ended up where you are? Yeah. Yeah. So we should preface that with, uh, Tony is an acupuncturist and he's working out of Long Beach and he's done acupuncture on me a few times, and it's amazing.

oking into it a little bit , [: 00:09:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , I, I find that pretty interesting. But I would like to hear about your, your personal, uh, kinda your personal story.

Tony McCloskey: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. And thanks for coming in and allowing me, you know, the honor to work on you and, and help out where I can, you know? Oh, it's been such a blessing. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, this will be my 20th year in healthcare.

Tony McCloskey: Um, I started out, Actually in the military, how I got into healthcare was kind of a fluke. Um, you know, I had a, you know, I did a lot of side jobs and I, I went to college earlier on in my, um, in my twenties and I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. I, I kept changing my, you know, uh, you know, uh, what do you call it?

t down. And so, um, a lot of [: 00:10:00

Tony McCloskey: So I ended up looking at the, the military. And the military is what got me into he. And so, uh, I really wanted to join the Coast Guard. That was my big, uh, passion at the time. But, you know, I still hadn't had my life really sorted yet. And, uh, I drug my feet on my application. Uh, I was a G E D graduate, so there was some complications for my, um, admission.

Tony McCloskey: And so, um, you know, I had writes and papers and stuff and I just, uh, I kept putting it off, kept putting it off, and eventually, uh, I aged out. You know, there was a, a cutoff, um, in that particular branch. And, I went over that cutoff. And so I ended up in the Army eventually when I, when I got my life sorted.

Tony McCloskey: And, uh, [: 00:11:00

Tony McCloskey: And, you know, I, I guess there was a curiosity in me, like, how did he get to that place, you know? And I wanted to learn to be hard like him, and, and I joined the infantry and I hated it. You know, I hated everything about it. Um, I didn't understand it at the time. I was too young to really understand why they did the things that they did.

Tony McCloskey: Um, looking, you know, in hindsight, looking back, I understand it a lot more now that I've kind of matured into, into sharing that, that vision of what's needed for that kind of

Jeff Nesbitt: work. What, what do you mean exactly? Like the

Tony McCloskey: structure? Um, the structure or the mindset that they tried to really instill in people.

: You know, there was, um, , [: 00:12:00

Tony McCloskey: It's literally like, if it's the worst day imaginable, those are the days you're out training, right? Yeah. You know, and so I'm thinking, oh, I get to play with guns and I get to hike around and stuff, and it, it'll be all, you know, kind of iconic. And it's, uh, it's very much gritty. It's very much dirty. It's very ugly.

ad a lot of opportunities to [: 00:13:00

Tony McCloskey: I never felt like we were really capitalized on a lot of that. And I'm like, I don't want to like learn this when people are shooting at me. I want to learn it beforehand, you know? And, and I felt like we could have done a lot better when it comes to that, but that. Um, you know, I wasn't prepared for the reality of it.

Tony McCloskey: And I think the biggest thing was the mindset. Like that's when everything kind of clicked for me , there was a mindset that they tried to instill at times. Not everybody that, um, was very aggressive, you know? And you have to be, to have a certain amount of confidence in that kind of arena. But, um, you know, it was borderline sociopathic, you know, at times.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Like, there's people that really look forward and got excited at the idea of like, killing other people. And

We're not all meant to kill [: 00:14:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. And there's a lot of warriors out there that don't get excited about doing it too, you know what I mean?

Tony McCloskey: Like, I hope so. Yeah. So that part was really difficult for me to digest. Um, You know, I mean, uh, my idea of the military was like, you know, Hitler or Stalin trying to, conquer the world and, and, and putting up a stand to it. And to me that's what being a warrior was all about. It wasn't being excited about any of it, you know?

Tony McCloskey: And, and so it was a duty, it was a duty. You know, it's shooting back at somebody who's shooting at you, you know? Yeah. And I can do that, you know, and , but when I was put in a position where people were in charge of my life that really looked forward to doing that, I was like, okay, this does not feel comfortable to me.

Tony McCloskey: And so, uh, I guess I'm not as hard as my dad. I don't know. And so, um, when I got out, I was like, I wanna do the exact opposite of what I'm doing now. And that's how I ended up in healthcare. So that makes.

eff Nesbitt: Yeah, there's a [: 00:15:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. I think that we're both needed. I'm not as hard as my dad. Mm-hmm. and it, I, a lot of that stuff sounds very. Familiar just Bec and my dad was not in the military, but he grew up in hard conditions. He had a hard life. Yeah. And he tried to prepare me for a hard life like that. And so he was a hard guy.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. . And, um, I'm just really, I'm, I'm a soft boy. I'm a silly boy. Mm-hmm. , you know, I'm just like, I just wanna have some fun, kind of talk about interesting things and just like, have emotions and, and look at art. And I, I'm that kind of guy. Yeah. Um, I actually came really close to joining the military when I was 17.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , I did very well on that ASVAB test. Yeah. Yeah. Same. And they all came asking me to join and they were very convincing. Like this one recruiter that I had talked to a lot said they were gonna send me to, officer training and put me on a nuclear sub. Oh wow. And I, that sounded pretty sweet. Mm-hmm.

tt: But, , the idea of that. [: 00:16:00

Jeff Nesbitt: I don't know. Mm-hmm. and I would've no say in the matter. That's part of it. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't do it and you know, who knows what my life would've been like if it would've been that way. But I did have to, I went through that process of being like, well, and it's the same, it's the same thing as, uh, like mentally preparing yourself if you ever have to go to prison.

Jeff Nesbitt: She was like, I'm gonna have to change a little bit. Mm-hmm. , I, I'm not gonna be able to be the turn the other cheek version of myself anymore. Yeah. You're gonna have to get hard. Yeah. To survive, just to be able to survive in places like that, you have to rise to the occasion, and I don't want to do that.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , but it sounds like you don't either.

n the military, and a lot of [: 00:17:00

Tony McCloskey: The unfortunate reality of that. And there's definitely a lot of, um, presences that I would've been comfortable following, you know what I mean? In, in, in times of hardship like that. And, but you know, I've seen a lot of these gentlemen that have lived hard lives too. And, and it's, it's no guarantee that you're going to come out of it, you know, with any kind of, um, Any happier of an ending than anybody else.

Jeff Nesbitt: Really? What I mean? No, it's just offensive. Yeah. You're hard from that exoskeleton. You built a wall around yourself. That's what it is. Mm-hmm. . And it's, it is safer. Mm-hmm. Emotionally at least. Yeah. And really probably other ways, but it also, it's gonna end your life faster because you're hyper vigilant.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , you wear out. Mm-hmm. just, you can't keep that going.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. [: 00:18:00

Tony McCloskey: Um, a lot of times in this, you know, working in healthcare, you see it come out physically. Like you can't suppress too much. or shove down too much in your life without it, you know, uh, grinding on you in some way. Yeah. So, so, yeah. Um,

Jeff Nesbitt: so next, you were, uh, into the medical field. Yeah. Oh, wait, first, first though, what years were you in the military?

Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, geez. Or roughly. Just trying to think of

ing on. Geopolitically. Yeah.: 2000

Jeff Nesbitt: the, like, the heat of it. Mm-hmm. .

ort Polk, uh, Louisiana when [: 00:19:00

Tony McCloskey: And so that was a big, that was a big deal. That was a big, it

Jeff Nesbitt: still is, honestly. It never really got resolved. It's still a big deal. Uh, that must have been kind of, I don't know, depending on who you are. Exhilarating, scary, uh, stressful in general. Mm-hmm. to just to know that. Okay. I'm getting called up.

Jeff Nesbitt: Things are changing. Yeah,

Tony McCloskey: I think that was the biggest part. You know, it was, you knew that pretty soon you were gonna be, you know, deployed in some capacity, especially in the, you know, units we were at. So, yeah. So yeah, there was some, uh, anxiousness probably that came from that. Um, we were already slated to go somewhere, so, uh, you know, we weren't necessarily probably the first unit that would've been, uh, boots on the ground as far as where they chose for us to deploy.

Tony McCloskey: [: 00:20:00

Jeff Nesbitt: one last question about the military. What, what did your dad.

Tony McCloskey: Uh, my dad passed away while I was in basic training or, you know, sometime around the time that I was in.

Tony McCloskey: And I hadn't talked to him in a lot, in a lot of years, so I don't know what he would've thought. Yeah, yeah. He, he passed away early, you know, he lived hard. He lived his life the way he wanted to, and, uh, and he, uh, you know, he left probably earlier than I think he probably could have, you know, if he would've taken a little bit better care of himself.

Jeff Nesbitt: But yeah, the Vietnam vets had a lot of, uh, baggage to carry. Mm-hmm. , a lot of those guys were very tormented.

this rage thing that happens [: 00:21:00

Tony McCloskey: Mm-hmm. , uh, emotionally and, and physically and all the, all the above. And, uh, when I saw that part of him, you know, I didn't envy him, you know, at all. Like, he, he did carry his, his scars with him everywhere. Yeah. And, uh,

Jeff Nesbitt: yeah, PTSD is a strange, strange, uh, condition. I, I don't wouldn't even call it a disorder.

Jeff Nesbitt: It's a, seems like a reasonable reaction to a real threat. Mm-hmm. , but it's, the way it exhibits itself is very odd to me. The fact that, like, especially with soldiers and police and firemen, the fact that they don't have emotional responses to those things in the heat of the moment. Mm-hmm. , like when the trauma's actually occurring, they're usually, they're in Gomo as a cu cool as a cucumber.

al response to that. Mm-hmm. [: 00:22:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. and it just kind of simmers back there. And then these, these little kind of like pseudo events will provoke some kind of a reaction, but it's, it's not a, the full processing that it's required to get rid of it. It's, it's an interesting, yeah. Just the response that we have to things like, Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Forces a release, you know? And, uh, you know, I don't know what it takes to heal some of that. You know, some, some people have seen stuff that, um, you know, they definitely never want to share with others. And I, and I can imagine why and, um, you know, after working in healthcare and seeing a lot of the suffering over years and years of people that aren't necessarily like my bro, right?

and, and then to see that on [: 00:23:00

Tony McCloskey: I can't imagine. It's, um, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot. And, uh, you have to be pretty hard, I think, to even be able to shoulder any of that memory for, for long periods of time, you know?

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. And then on top of that, you, you're back in the states and. It's very convoluted of like what you are even doing. The, there's so many different narratives that try to explain what the United States is doing overseas in all the various places, and a lot of 'em are very anti United States.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. And that must feel like shit for people who are just like, I just risked my life. I just doing what I was told. Especially if on top of that they were doing things that they don't feel great about. Mm-hmm. , that's gotta be a, a really heavy burden to carry. I value, I value the troops. Support the troops.

tt: Yeah. Absolutely. I feel [: 00:24:00

Jeff Nesbitt: They're not usually even wearing military gear. They're wearing suits. Mm-hmm. , but. , they're the ones sending the young boys out to get killed. Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Uh, a lot of those people at the top probably, I imagine all of them to some degree had to sludge their way up to it. And so, I mean, they're, I think a lot of them carry a lot of that stuff.

Tony McCloskey: But, um, you know, I don't, you know, I don't know. Uh, I don't want to, I can't think at that level because I just never, you know, I never worked that hard. It's not even

Jeff Nesbitt: worth it. It's, it's very frustrating. I try and all I find is dead ends and confusion and really conspiracies. That's what you eventually stumble on.

ff Nesbitt: If you look hard [: 00:25:00

Jeff Nesbitt: there's no authority figure to tell us. Hmm. Like, no one's, no one is gonna come on the news and be like, yes, Klaus Schwab in the World Economic Forum, they do have this grand plan. By the way, Klaus Schwab, why'd you pull out of Davos? Hmm. Like, he just didn't go in his big meeting. I don't know. Seems fishy.

Jeff Nesbitt: Hmm. But, um, yeah, I'm, I digress.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I mean, it's just not as black as more as it not at all. You know, the history of I think our, our military and I don't know much about it. I'm not, I don't, I'm not, I'm tactician or any of that stuff at all. I think we're

Jeff Nesbitt: learning new stuff all the time about the, not just the history of the military, but our whole country.

to our history than, than we [: 00:26:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, wow. By a big extinction event. Mm-hmm. . That's cool. There's a lot of evidence for that too, especially when you look in the Amazon and things like that, where they're seeing these huge cities that are now just overgrown jungles. Yeah. The Amazon itself is a, is a garden that's an overgrown garden.

Jeff Nesbitt: It's mostly made of edible, edible plants. Mm-hmm. , it has very few toxic plants and a lot of edible plants. The ratios are so skewed in that direction that people are like, this has to be a garden. This was planted this way. Hmm. It's pretty.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah, pretty cool. It's definitely got the climate for it and uh, I can't imagine, you know, a lot of our modern day medicines, it came from places like that, you know?

h. I mean there's just a lot [: 00:27:00

Jeff Nesbitt: not hidden for long. We're cutting down all the trees. We'll find 'em. Yeah. ,

Tony McCloskey: unfortunately.

Jeff Nesbitt: Um, we gotta plant the palm somewhere. Yeah. We need all that palm oil. Mm. It's like thousands of acres of palm down there.

Jeff Nesbitt: That used to be Amazon Jungle like 20 years ago. Yeah. It's, it, that shit scares me. The, the fact that they cut down the Amazon

Tony McCloskey: Yeah, that's a, I mean that just kind of speaks to this whole global. Crisis that I think, you know, a lot of people either are aware of or should be, you know, we are very much symbiotic with our planet and um, you know, the more that we think that we know better and can control it, the bigger trouble we're gonna get ourselves into.

Tony McCloskey: And, um, you know, we're not

Jeff Nesbitt: separate. No. We're just, we're all,

Tony McCloskey: we are nature. Yeah. You know, a lot of what is around us that, you know, we breathe what these plants put out, we breathe what these trees put out. Like they are part of us literally,

ut out. Yeah. They sequester [: 00:28:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Right. Just like we just trade. Yeah. It's a very good relationship. We gotta keep that going.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. And show it the respect I think it deserves. So yeah. That's, um, yeah, that's an interesting. Kind of, uh, we could talk

Jeff Nesbitt: about the way the world's ending more cuz I, I, lately I've been on that, but I wanna hear more about your transition into the medical

Tony McCloskey: field first.

Tony McCloskey: Okay. Um, yeah, so, okay, I,

Jeff Nesbitt: let's see, where was I at? Well, you just left the military and now, uh, you're onto your next thing.

Tony McCloskey: Okay. So yeah, I, uh, started out as 20 years ago today. Started out as a caregiver. Yeah. I licensed up, you know, it was a small like weekend class or something to just see if I could, uh, handle it, you know, I kind of wanted to test the waters and see if my personality was a match for that.

key: And, uh, I started, uh, [: 00:29:00

Tony McCloskey: Um, and uh, I worked there a few months and I was like, you know, I think I could do this. And so I applied for my, um, Certified nursing aid program that they held there locally and thought I would, you know, take the next rung of the ladder. And I got into that, uh, I graduated that program. It was a couple months, I think, um, full-time school and then, uh, a national certification.

Valley Community College was [: 00:30:00

Tony McCloskey: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Out in Medford. Okay. And, uh, I worked on the orthopedic neuroscience floor. It was my home floor. Uh, there, it was a lot of, uh, stroke patients. It was a lot of, uh, um, you know, back surgeries, knee surgeries, hip surgeries, things like that. Um, Some, you know, a lot of post-op stuff and we were sister unit to the joint replacement unit, so we got a lot of that overflow.

t, you know, somebody's home.[: 00:31:00

Tony McCloskey: And, uh, I guess it, you know, I kind of fueled a little bit of the bug and I thought I could, you know, definitely be a nurse and eventually started working towards my nursing degree. And so, um, I eventually got into the LPN program. I remember I was trying to get into the RN program and I was, there's two classes I was short on and I couldn't get 'em in time.

Tony McCloskey: I couldn't get 'em done in time for that. Like it was a, it was a yearly application process, very, um, competitive and there was a LPN program that was uh, you know, biannual and so I could apply for that without having to wait a whole nother year. And so I jumped into that one cuz there was a transition program in that school in row community college.

hat transition program. Like [: 00:32:00

Tony McCloskey: What's lpn? LPNs? A licensed practical nurse. Oh, okay. You know, or low nurse as

Jeff Nesbitt: opposed to a registered nurse. Yeah. It's just lower paying. Is that it?

Tony McCloskey: in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, your scope of practice is a, is a bit different too. Um, . So, yeah. And then I worked as an L P N most of my career after that. You know, I, I, I looked into RN programs after, and then eventually, you know, it got so strict that a lot of my, um, college would expire.

Tony McCloskey: You know, science is always moving forward and they always wanted updated credentials. And so, you know, in order to get into, um, an RN program or a transition program after a while became difficult. Cuz I have to retake a lot of classes and I, I already paid thousands of dollars to take those classes and I was like really hesitant to like, retake 'em all, you know?

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. That [: 00:33:00

Tony McCloskey: So eventually, Uh, about six years ago, I think, um, I started looking at alternative medicine. Yeah. And, uh, that's after working in, uh, you know, long-term care and Alzheimer's, dementia and hospice care and respite care and, uh, you know, hospital overflow and, uh, rehab and all that kind of stuff. And some home care too, actually later on.

ot of those different arenas [: 00:34:00

Jeff Nesbitt: you know? What was the motivating factor or factors

Tony McCloskey: for, for the switch?

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Were you seeing holes in the system or, or did you just get bored?

Jeff Nesbitt: What was the, what motivated you to switch over?

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. A lot of it, a lot of, a lot of different actually, um, Impulses came my way for that. I'd say the biggest one, you know, is, is definitely holes. Like there's, there's a lot of big holes that need looking at and um, I felt like, um, there were people that wanted options that didn't have them.

And so, um, and I felt like [: 00:35:00

Tony McCloskey: You know, that problem

Jeff Nesbitt: seems to have gotten worse since this time.

Tony McCloskey: Uh, yeah. I mean, uh, maybe, you know, um, it,

Jeff Nesbitt: there's more illegal things than there were then. Like the, the FDA has cracked down on homeopathic treatments. Really? Yeah. Um, interesting. Yeah. All kinds, like the internet censorship on natural types of medicine.

Jeff Nesbitt: Uhhuh, is very heavy. Is it?

th,: 2022

Posing the greatest risk to patients. The FDA is prioritizing specific categories of drugs, such as those intended for populations at greater risk for adverse reactions, there are currently no FDA [00:36:00] approved products labeled as homeopathic and the agency cannot ensure these drugs meet standards for safety, effectiveness, and quality.

Previously the FDA warned the public about homeopathic products, including those containing a toxic substance. And one's recalled due to contamination.

So there you have it. They're not necessarily illegal. But. They are not regulated by the FDA. They're not approved by the FDA.

Jeff Nesbitt: They do not want people to be encouraged to go out and find alternative ways to be healthy. Yeah. I don't know why. Mm-hmm. , I mean, I have my theories. Okay. But, It's pretty clear that the, the people with the people pulling the strings, aka the ones with the money, aka the pharmaceutical companies mm-hmm.

m. , you know, it's, yeah. , [: 00:37:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. You see that in nursing a lot, you know, um, repeated interventions that you literally chart and communicate, it's ineffectiveness and, uh, continued prescriptions along the exact same line, like no variation.

Tony McCloskey: It's like a single play in a playbook. And, and that's pretty intimidating at times, or discouraging. Seems logical.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Like, honestly, it's, it seems like bad care and they're, they could do better. Mm-hmm. it's, but, but that's not what they're in the business of doing either. Mm-hmm. , they don't, they only have a very limited amount of time for, I mean, I mean, talking just.

Jeff Nesbitt: medically, not necessarily with, uh, like long-term care type stuff, but mm-hmm. doctors don't have time to do that much. They can't sit there and ask you all these questions about your sleep and your diet and your family history and all that. I mean, they do to some extent, but it's pretty limited. Yeah.

ur, your treatments are very [: 00:38:00

Jeff Nesbitt: To make me better, not just meant to, I'm not just checking a box or fulfilling a procedure on a paper somewhere. Yeah,

Tony McCloskey: yeah, yeah. Paper care, you know, uh, paper care is definitely sometimes, uh, the precedence to patient care, and that's, that's a hard transition for anybody. I think that's really wants to be connected with their, with their patients or their clients, you know?

Tony McCloskey: And I don't blame the doctors and I don't blame the staff, you know, like they're, they're working. In a, in a format that was given to them. And in order for them to maintain their licensure and in order for them to, um, practice at all and be supported and be able to make money at it, you know, and support their families, like they have to work within those and pay their debts.

And pay their debts, which, [: 00:39:00

Tony McCloskey: Abstract and, and alternative and fringe, fringe stuff.

Jeff Nesbitt: And most likely the levels that they are thinking on and planning and, and making adjustments to the system is not the same levels that we're thinking on, or including the doctors and the patients and. Everyone in the military, like, it's just a different, it's a different situation.

Jeff Nesbitt: If, if you had to try to think like a hundred years in the future for millions and millions of people and try to come up with the best scenario for everybody, that's a whole different job. Yeah. Than

and, and to have a workable, [: 00:40:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Just

Jeff Nesbitt: to be able to hold that many variables in your mind and still simulate the future forward is pretty hard to do. Mm-hmm. , I can't even do it with my own life. I can see like a week in, week in advance, and then after that it gets blurry. Yeah. .

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. So many considerations and I, I don't. , those people that, you know, I imagine that's, those are real deep thoughts and, um, they had to learn a lot in order to to, to make those, um, those judgments and, and those decisions or, or whatever.

Jeff Nesbitt: I, I think that's being generous. I think a lot of them were born into a rich family and they were handed a bunch of, uh, opportunities, some of which they deserve, some of which they didn't. Some of 'em are high-performing people. A lot of 'em are because they come from families that that's always been encouraged, but a lot of 'em didn't, didn't earn it.

d I, that's, that's me being [: 00:41:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , and then we just did it. Yeah. And it wasn't the best thing for us.

.

I just wanted to give a little background to why I said this. This is from an article I read just a little while back. It was published last April, but it is still extremely relevant to what's going on today.

It is from none other than our benevolent overlords at the world. Economic forum.

needed to support people in [: 00:42:00

Staying on message. Here's the rest of the article.

It's not very long. The world is facing a surge in economic inequality, accelerated by COVID-19 and exacerbated by the impact of the war in Ukraine. Governments need to initiate urgent change to tackle extreme poverty and narrow the gap between the rich and poor.

Laying the foundations for a more equal and sustainable future. The numbers reveal the extent of the problem. The richest 10% of the world's population owns 76% of the wealth while the poorest half. Owns just a sliver. According to the world. Inequality lab.

th century. [: 00:43:00

The pandemic wiped out years of progress in reducing poverty and caused economic inequality. Despite. The world's 10 bridges, men have doubled their fortune since the global health emergency began. While the incomes of 99% of humanity are worse off as a result, according to Oxfam. More than 160 million people have also been pushed into poverty. The UK charity estimates.

Now Russia's war and Ukraine is deepening the gloom beyond the battlefield. The conflict has upended, commodity markets and global supply chains, driving up prices for energy and food. For developing countries that are highly dependent on fuel and food from Russia and Ukraine, the impact of the war will be devastating. According to the international monetary fund managing director.

. Kristalina Georgieva. To put it very simply a warring Ukraine means hunger in Africa. She told foreign policy magazine.

[: 00:44:00

Benevolent overlords.

med their global forecast for: 2022

With the scale and ambition of the Marshall plan in the aftermath of world war II could be needed to keep poor and even middle [00:45:00] income countries from going under.

Well, that sucks.

Jeff Nesbitt: I don't know what the best thing would've been. I don't know how deep all of that goes, but it's, I'm pissed off and I'm exhausted by the fact that it's just an endless stream of bullshit from those people who they just say exactly what they need to say to get the, the press off of their back.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , and then they go on with their fucking corrupt bullshit. Mm-hmm. . It's, it's, uh, it's exhausting.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's unfortunate. Um. It's unfortunate. It's unfortunate. Yeah. You know, that's, uh, that's a difficult area to even talk about. Like, I've been learning a little bit about the political structure, um, at the port.

t go, that are involved with [: 00:46:00

Tony McCloskey: And, uh, you know, it just, uh, it blows my mind some of the stuff that is, is happening and how it happens and, and, and the decisions and stuff. I mean, a lot of it is just so much consideration that I, it makes my my brain explode to think about all the different things you have to think about and all the different litigation that's involved and all the different licensing and coordination of, of agencies.

Tony McCloskey: And, you know, it's ju it's definitely a, a difficult thing I think though, you know, people that are born into it, I just can't imagine them without having. Amount of passion ever being super successful with it. Like I feel like the people that really have passion about it, you know, it always shows and I think that people will gravitate towards that energy.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. So much more than people that are just kind of like, I'm doing this cuz I was born into it and

e reason that he was able to [: 00:47:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. because he went to a private school and the PTA. Like got together the money and they bought this computer for their school. And, um, so he had access to, and it was one of those card machines where it's like the, uh, punch cards. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I read this book called Outliers. It's a Malcolm Gladwell book, and he talks about these, these types of people who, it's like the outliers are the ones who not only were they born with opportunities, but they also had that passion mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: And they also had that charisma and they just had all of the right conditions to just make this happen. Yeah. And I think that's exactly what, what you're kind of referencing there is is that like it takes both.

g section of the podcast and [: 00:48:00

Malcom: Here is the result:

Malcom: The following claims were made in the transcript:

Malcom: 1. Bill Gates was a "silver spoon kid."

Malcom: 2. Gates had access to a computing system at age 16 that the top people in the world didn't have access to.

Malcom: 3. Gates went to a private school where the PTA bought a computer for the school.

Malcom: 4. Gates had access to a card machine with punch cards.

Malcom: 5. The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell discusses people born with a silver spoon who also have passion.

Malcom: Fact Check:

Malcom: 1. Bill Gates was born into a wealthy family, but it is a subjective claim to say that he was a "silver spoon kid."

asingly available in the late: 1970

Malcom: 3. Gates did attend a private school, but there is no evidence to support the claim that the PTA bought a computer for the school.

used punch cards, which was [: 00:49:00

Malcom: 5. The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell does discuss people who have a combination of opportunities and passion, but it is not limited to those born with a silver spoon.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have to capitalize on your opportunities, and you have to have the skillsets to be able to capitalize on it.

Tony McCloskey: And I don't think you can do any of that without some kind of passion for, for what you're doing.

Jeff Nesbitt: And I think Elon Musk is another one. Yeah, totally. I think his parents own like a Diamond mine or something. , I don't know, but I'm not sure what they do.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. He's gonna be a name that we're gonna remember for a long time, you know?

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. With the stuff that he's into. I remember you were talking, uh, I went back a couple podcasts before I came out here, and you were talking about Neuralink you know, the Yeah. The, uh, that technology and stuff, uh, where you were like, we're not even gonna, you know, use keyboards anymore. And, uh, I remember seeing, uh, some kind of reference about Elon, you know, endorsing the Neuralink, you know, um, company or, or

Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, it was all his idea.

sbitt: Yeah. Like that's his [: 00:50:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Hm. And, the whole reason that they did that was to discourage them from putting in light rail, huh? Like, high-speed rail.

Tony McCloskey: Why? Uh,

Jeff Nesbitt: because they wanna sell more Teslas.

Tony McCloskey: Oh, okay.

Jeff Nesbitt: I think as my guess,

Jeff Nesbitt: Hold up! DJ run that shit back. Chat GPT... you know what to do.

Jeff Nesbitt: The following claims were made in the transcript:

Jeff Nesbitt: 1. Elon Musk's parents own a diamond mine.

Jeff Nesbitt: 2. Elon Musk is a name that will be remembered for a long time.

Jeff Nesbitt: 3. Neuralink is a technology that will replace the use of keyboards.

Jeff Nesbitt: 4. Elon Musk is the founder of Neuralink.

Jeff Nesbitt: 5. Elon Musk has many companies.

. Elon [: 00:51:00

Jeff Nesbitt: 7. The reason for digging the tunnel under L.A. was to discourage high-speed rail and sell more Teslas.

Jeff Nesbitt: Fact Check:

k was born in South Africa in: 1971

Jeff Nesbitt: Elon's father was an electromechanical engineer and property developer, and his mother was a model and dietitian.

Jeff Nesbitt: Elon's family was not wealthy, and he had to work hard from a young age to support himself.

Jeff Nesbitt: 2. Elon Musk has had a significant impact on various industries, and he is known for his ambitious goals, but it is impossible to predict the future and say if he will be remembered for a long time.

faces, but it is too soon to [: 00:52:00

Jeff Nesbitt: 4. It is true that Elon Musk is one of the co-founders of Neuralink.

Jeff Nesbitt: 5. Elon Musk is the CEO of several companies, including Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink, and The Boring Company.

Jeff Nesbitt: 6. It is true that The Boring Company, one of Elon Musk's companies, has dug a tunnel under L.A.

Jeff Nesbitt: 7. The reason for digging the tunnel under L.A. by The Boring Company is to reduce traffic congestion and not specifically to discourage high-speed rail or sell more Teslas, although Elon Musk is the CEO of both Tesla and The Boring Company. Some may argue that Elon's conflicts of interest pose a risk to objective decision-making in his companies and may benefit him personally.

is to, you know, outlaw, uh, [: 00:53:00

Tony McCloskey: or combustible engines that doesn't include outboard motors because, They just need boats now.

Tony McCloskey: That fucking whole place is underwater. Have you looked at that? Have you seen California this week?

Tony McCloskey: Uh, no I haven't. I've just heard about, uh, the big story.

Tony McCloskey: Hundreds of square miles underwater. Hmm. It's crazy. It's basically from like, I don't even know, San Francisco to, uh, pretty far down, pretty far down somewhere in the Central Valley or below.

Tony McCloskey: Wow. It's crazy. There's a lot of property damage. I'm, I'm worried about the food situation with that, but that's a lot of farm country. Yeah. Like they grow a large amount of food for our country. Yeah. Probably exports too. .

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. California just gets hit so much. Like, you know, if it isn't wildfires, it's freaking flooding.

Tony McCloskey: Like, how much more can that state take? Like

there. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's [: 00:54:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. New York is another one. There's, it's no, I don't know. I just, I do think there's something to that, like, uh, energy of cities. Mm-hmm. , especially really big, powerful cities that have deep, rich histories. Mm-hmm. , I think that they have, uh, It's almost like an energetic memory. Yeah. Like they, they hold power,

Tony McCloskey: some kind of nexus, you know?

Tony McCloskey: Mm-hmm. . It's just like, so much is drawn to that place and I'm not sure why it's,

Jeff Nesbitt: yeah. It couldn't just be the weather, like, which is

Tony McCloskey: nice. Yeah. There's probably something deeper involved with that, you know, and, and you know, considering I lived in California for a little while and, you know, it's kind of an unstable place.

Tony McCloskey: Like there's earthquakes all the damn time and, you know, um, you know, it's a nice beach, but there's a lot of nice beaches out there, you know? Yeah. And so there's something that draws people there. I'm not sure what it

Jeff Nesbitt: is. Yeah. Everything's expensive. Mm-hmm. , it takes forever to get anywhere. There's, there's a lot of things to complain about.

. , I like being down there. [: 00:55:00

Tony McCloskey: too. The Redwood Forest and Oh, that's my favorite place. Oh God. You know, and a lot of variety too. You can get, you know, desert ish. Yeah. Um, areas as well and, and everything in between.

Tony McCloskey: You know, it's,

Jeff Nesbitt: yeah. California is very cool if, if they, uh, got rid of. , half of the people, it would be more tolerable. It's just overwhelming. Mm-hmm. for me to be around that many people. Mm-hmm. , uh, I don't, I don't like it. Especially the fact that a lot of them are homeless and unpredictable. Mm-hmm. , you don't know what they're gonna do.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. That, that is, I mean, I'm sort of joking, but it's, it is honestly true. Um, you walk down the street in a lot of Californian cities and they're lined with tents and human feces. Mm-hmm. . So it's a

Tony McCloskey: bummer. You know, that's a part of Yeah. This, this, uh, chapter in our culture. You know, we're seeing a lot of that.

less ever, you know? Um, and [: 00:56:00

Jeff Nesbitt: yeah. There'd be like a homeless guy.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , like there's, oh, there's the homeless guy, and he would like live in the city and wear a helmet and people know the homeless guy. Mm-hmm. . But now it is like, there's. everywhere. Yeah. There's a lot of people and, and they're, I, it feels weird to talk about 'em as if they're like some subspecies of, because they're not, they're just people, but mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: so many of them are struggling with mental health. Yeah. And addiction problems. Mm-hmm. and just in general, overall health. They look like zombies sometimes. Like when they're, there're if there's a person who's on methamphetamines hasn't eaten and slept for days, they're terrifying to look at. Mm-hmm. And that is the case on a lot of these streets where it's like, it's scary.

, I, I don't know, it's just [: 00:57:00

Jeff Nesbitt: and I lived there for a year with, with my buddies. And while I was going to college, they lived in like, Redwood Park and mm-hmm. just amongst the homeless community. Mm-hmm. and, uh, it was cool. They like, cuz it was young people. Mm-hmm. Arcade, California. It was, it was just like a hippie mecca. Mm-hmm. . And, but it was mostly young people, so it was people around our age and it, that's a different, totally different vibe.

Jeff Nesbitt: It was like travelers. Mm-hmm. , like they were just like us, but dirtier. Mm-hmm. and they had way more weed mm-hmm. and, um, but other than that, that was it. It wasn't like people in their late stages of life who. visibly need help. Yeah. And that makes you feel scared. It's like, this is just not a safe situation.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. this, I don't like it. Yeah. Things have just changed. Yeah.

some of those personalities. [: 00:58:00

Tony McCloskey: And, uh, yeah. There was times where, you know, you see people lashing out. Yeah. You see people like yelling and starting fights and, um, I

Jeff Nesbitt: saw a video the other day of a homeless lady pushed a toddler in front of a train. Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: I mean, it's just, it's unreal. Some of the, they got

Jeff Nesbitt: her out before the train hit her, but it was like they were a bunch of people sitting on the ground.

Jeff Nesbitt: This mom and a little girl, probably three or four years old, Uhhuh walking down the sidewalk alongside the train tracks. Yeah. And this homeless lady, just like, Leaned up and just boom, pushed the little girl and she fell off the sidewalk onto the tracks, and then the mom grabbed her, pulled her back up before it was too late.

Jeff Nesbitt: But

ere's, you know, something I [: 00:59:00

Jeff Nesbitt: out of them.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Yeah. There's an interface issue though when it's, when it's drugs and mental illness mm-hmm. , it's, it's really hard to pull the wisdom.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Well, and it's right in your face. And like that's I think the biggest messaging right now is like, it's right in your face now. You can't Yeah. Shove it to the side like you probably could before downplay it like you could before, which is good.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah.

Jeff Nesbitt: Because we'll

Tony McCloskey: have to do something. We're forced to deal with it. Yeah. You know, and that's, um, that's an important message I think that needs to come across. It's unfortunate how it has to happen for us to like, pay attention sometimes, but, um, it's very, I

Jeff Nesbitt: don't know how to solve that problem. Mm-hmm.

's not a sidewalk. Mm-hmm. . [: 01:00:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. For some it's a preferred lifestyle.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. You know, and, and they've had, some people have had opportunities to leave it and they don't. Yeah. I don't know. You know, that's a, that's a big question. I mean, it really, to me it rings of other bigger problems, you know, like, um, you know, some of the housing issues and things where it's just, it's, it's unreasonable.

Tony McCloskey: Um, you know, how costly it can be to survive, you know, in, in Yeah. Contemporary culture

Jeff Nesbitt: and it's gotten crazy. Yeah. It has hit hyper speed too. The, just the, the rate of change. Mm-hmm. look at stuff five years ago. If you go to a grocery store five years ago and then look at the prices today. Mm-hmm. , it's probably three times more.

it's, it seems way more than [: 01:01:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. You feel

Tony McCloskey: it. Yeah. You feel it, you know? Yeah. It's 50 bucks to walk out with groceries or to walk out with vegetable groceries, you know what

Jeff Nesbitt: I mean? Oh, fresh ones. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking rotable. Mm-hmm. , I get canned .

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. So, yeah, it's a different dynamic. And then also, you know, like you're talking about the mental health, like there is a lot of mental health that goes on, a lot of mental health issues that go on in our culture that, I mean, it's really, it's becoming, you know, front stage.

Tony McCloskey: um, concern, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, and if it hasn't, it should be because like, you see a, you know, when you start learning about holistic medicine, all that stuff's intertwined. And a lot of times, one of the things I noticed in nursing as well is that some people you can fix all their problems and they will still have a new problem next week.

Tony McCloskey: You know what I mean? And that really rings if something deeper. And

ur life has been a nightmare [: 01:02:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Unless you are aware of it and, and know to like how to break those patterns, which takes actual work and intervention. Mm-hmm. , but it's not easy and it doesn't just happen. A lot of people will resist that. Mm-hmm. and it's because they've been hurt. Like the, the world has, has screwed them over more times than they're willing to, uh, like to accept and they don't want to have it happen again.

Jeff Nesbitt: So they're just like, yeah, no, you can keep your free apartment. I'll stay right here in my shack. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. .

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. There's not a whole lot of options. And then the options to, you know, what are the options? You know, like, you know, it's just, you know, a lot of times it's, uh, medication and, and counseling and counseling's financially prohibitive to some degree.

it is such a huge cost to us [: 01:03:00

Tony McCloskey: It's unfortunate that the ways set, you know, that the, that our culture is set up that way, but also, you know, we all gotta make a living too. And there's, you know, like I said, there's a lot of, uh, financial precedence for

Jeff Nesbitt: us to, the mental health system is set up a lot like the regular medical system, though.

bout maintenance. Even now in: 2023

Jeff Nesbitt: Okay. Yeah. They're thinking, Ooh, something's up. That's

Tony McCloskey: an interesting insight. And there is a stigma to it. I think that it's

Jeff Nesbitt: gone down a lot. Mm-hmm. , it used to be way stronger, but it's still there. Yeah. Still there a little bit.

Tony McCloskey: I think we're coming around on that, like, um, um, one of your podcasts, I think maybe with Brooke, maybe you were talking about that.

know, uh, you know, therapy [: 01:04:00

Jeff Nesbitt: there's a certain patterns that we all kind of can fall into and we've, we've figured 'em out. We know what to do when you do that.

Jeff Nesbitt: So why not just share the information? That's what therapy is. It's just sharing tricks. how to run this thing that we're doing, like this human experience. We didn't come with an owner's manual. Mm-hmm. like therapy is just teaching people tricks that they should already know. Mm-hmm. , but they, nobody ever told them.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. It's not a, it's not a common, um, I, you know, Dinner table subject, you know? Yeah. And, uh,

Jeff Nesbitt: I don't even get why it's not, it's not a, a personal flaw to like, have a curiosity about the way you function emotionally. Mm-hmm. , that's not a downside of, of being, it's, I see that as a major plus. If I, if I'm talking to a person who's like self-aware and emotionally intelligent, I feel much safer.

n if I'm talking to a person [: 01:05:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Uh, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just, uh, it's a big, it's a big topic and I'm glad that there's, I'm glad we're seeing changes to that. I hope that, you know, it becomes a little bit more accessible.

Tony McCloskey: I hope that that stigma still softens over time and that it becomes a little bit less, um, taboo, you know? Yeah. To some degree. Like, and I don't say that like, oh, you know, um, You know, I'm not gonna seek out therapy because, you know, I don't want to be labeled or whatever. It's just, you know, I think when you start to talk about therapy, at least my impulse is like, yeah, like you were saying, there's, there's something wrong and now I need to be, it gets heavy wary of you.

about just your, it's, it's [: 01:06:00

Jeff Nesbitt: maintenance work.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. It's like exercise. Mm-hmm. , I mean, you can do it yourself. You don't need to go see a therapist. If you're, if you're self-trained, that's fine. Mm-hmm. . But like if you have a meditation practice or if you understand like the connection between going outside and how it affects you emotionally mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: or. , any kind of trick that works for you to keep yourself healthy and and mentally fit, then it, then it works. But if you don't have any of those tools and you're unhappy and you don't know how to fix it, that's when therapy's great. Mm-hmm. , because they will give you those tools

Tony McCloskey: mm-hmm. and let you know you're not alone with that too.

body experiences it, but the [: 01:07:00

Tony McCloskey: Mm-hmm. there, a lot of people struggle with it. And, you know, knowing that I think sometimes is, is super helpful. And I, it, it encourages me to consider, um, you know, therapy for, for just, you know, emotional hygiene. Mm-hmm. , you know, rather than the labeling. Labeling's a big deal. And this is one of the things I've seen in healthcare that I don't like one of the holes is that, um, you know, a lot of times your medical history will stay with you your entire life.

Tony McCloskey: And, and I don't, I've seen biases, you know, literally, um, be expressed. From reading somebody's medical history that didn't need to be there. You know what I mean? And it was, you know, medical history for somebody is like 20 years ago and like, are you gonna be the same person that you were 20 years ago?

d so like, treating somebody [: 01:08:00

Jeff Nesbitt: that says here you were diagnosed with homosexuality in 1984. Yeah, yeah,

Tony McCloskey: yeah. Or depression, or, you know, schizophrenic, whatever,

Malcom: Did you know that homosexuality was considered a mental disorder at one point?

Malcom: Chat GPT put together a concise summary of the history of the classification of homosexuality to shed some light on the topic, and hopefully make Jeff's joke more relevant and possibly even funny.

Malcom: The study and classification of homosexuality has been a topic of great intrigue and controversy throughout history. Ancient cultures, such as those in Greece and Rome, often viewed homosexuality as a natural aspect of human sexuality, but this attitude was not universal. In more recent times, contemporary science has attempted to categorize and understand homosexuality, leading to various classifications and diagnoses in the DSM, the manual used by mental health professionals.

wever, the DSM has undergone [: 01:09:00

Malcom: It was not until the DSM-III in 1980 that homosexuality was officially removed as a mental disorder, reflecting growing understanding and acceptance of homosexuality within society and the medical community. However, the classification and understanding of homosexuality remains a subject of ongoing debate and research within the field of abnormal psychology, particularly with regards to issues of gender and sexuality.

ucation and advocacy for the [: 01:10:00

Malcom: It is clear that our understanding and classification of homosexuality has evolved greatly over time, but there is still much work to be done to ensure that all individuals, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, are treated with dignity and respect

Tony McCloskey: you know, uh, breakdown and as if you're not able to heal and overcome any of it, you know what I mean?

Tony McCloskey: Sometimes that's the issue of the practitioner that's reading it and, and they're biased too. But also, you know, it's this, this permanent labeling that happens sometimes in, in healthcare with people's medical records that I don't always agree with because, you know, we learn in, in, you know, traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture that, you know, it's weather in our lives.

rm system that's gonna be in [: 01:11:00

Jeff Nesbitt: yeah. The blue sky's still there. The storm's just covering it up, it'll pass.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. And so I like the impermanence of how we look at health in, uh, in this particular facet of

Jeff Nesbitt: medicine. That makes also a lot more sense with mental health because so much of that diagnostic process is qualitative. Mm-hmm. , it's an opinion. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's a judgment on a Likert scale. It's like, oh, they, they seem a six anxious today.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , that's, that's their opinion and it, and it goes down as fact. Mm-hmm. , and I mean, I, it has to be that way because the ais aren't good enough yet, but they will be soon. Mm-hmm. and that'll be one of the many jobs that will disappear. Yeah. I swear to God, those, the ais are increasing so fast that they will be able to tell me, me personally, not everybody, I don't know who I don't know your life.

Jeff Nesbitt: My own [: 01:12:00

Tony McCloskey: it. That being said, I enjoyed your song with Ed , that AI song.

Tony McCloskey: Oh, I'm glad you liked it. AI driven song. That was great. I thought that was really fun. That was really funny to hear. I think I replayed that like three, four times Right on to like listen to it. Yeah. And hearing him get into it at the end was pretty cool. I'll just, like,

Jeff Nesbitt: I haven't been able to, uh, I haven't brought it up to him since then.

Jeff Nesbitt: I see him a lot and he hasn't mentioned it. I don't even know if he's heard it or what, but I don't even, I don't even know if he knows how to access them. I, I, I told him. Usually I help him with cell phone stuff, but I don't want be like, listen to the podcast. Listen to the podcast. Mm-hmm. . So I don't, I'm just letting him do it.

m, I'm super curious to know [: 01:13:00

Jeff Nesbitt: I want like, and I felt like I got it pretty close to where I wanted it. Like Ed's voice, I don't know if, I'm sure you probably Yes. Knew this already, but that was my voice also. Mm-hmm. with. Yeah. And, um, I, I thought it was funny. I thought it was funny, but I, I'm curious to know what Ed thought about

Tony McCloskey: it. . It was really good.

Tony McCloskey: It was a good spin on the subject matter, you know what I mean? Uhhuh, , like turning it into something, you know, uh, with color. Mm-hmm. and, and vibrance and, and fun. And so, and it is a serious subject matter. You know, how, how much is ai, you know, everybody's seen Terminator, right? Like that's, yeah. That was, uh, you know, that was, uh, an apocalyptic, um, idea that came from AI taking over.

Tony McCloskey: That's such a

t: great premise for a story [: 01:14:00

Tony McCloskey: yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I like some of the subject matter you bring up. Like you, you know, you're really, um, forward about talking about hard to talk about subjects, you know, mm-hmm.

Tony McCloskey: or, or, uh, subjects that people are uncomfortable talking about maybe. Yeah. And so I like that,

Jeff Nesbitt: you know, I don't know where that exactly comes from, but I, I love it. Like, I, I really enjoy it. I think it's probably the adhd, honestly, because I get bored super easily. Mm-hmm. and, um, I live in the past, in the future a lot.

ies and the future's full of [: 01:15:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. . So I like to think about the, the future a lot. I don't like to think about the past a lot, but I still do it because I'm human. And, uh, I think humans are addicted to feeling mm-hmm. and the past makes you feel mm-hmm. you like almost every time you, you go back there, you're like, Ooh, I feel that.

Jeff Nesbitt: Definitely. Yeah. Just the other day I went to my buddy's birthday. He was turning 34 and he, he's been a good friend of mine since we were in kindergarten. And, um, two of my other good friends, we were all in the same class, all grew up together. Mm-hmm. and two of them were there too. And we were all there with our families and, uh, we watched a bunch of movies that we had made together as kids in seventh, in eighth grade,

ng about it a lot, just like [: 01:16:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Hmm. And. Just knowing, like, I, I could get, I could jump right from where I was on the couch watching that into his head. Mm-hmm. , I, I knew how it felt to be him in that moment. I remembered the way that chair felt that I was sitting in. Hmm. Like, I remembered the shirt I was wearing. It felt like it was yesterday and I was the same person.

Jeff Nesbitt: But to, to do that exercise and to jump back into that perspective view, looking forward at me now, I'm so much cooler than I feel. Hmm. Like the, if I could go talk to 14 year old Jeff mm-hmm. , and just like, hang out for an hour and just bullshit, I would've thought I was the coolest motherfucker on the planet.

ould've wanted to be anybody [: 01:17:00

Jeff Nesbitt: So it, it's, it's just the, the act of traveling through time and space and getting to just bring these memories and just operate in this, uh, space time. Mm-hmm. , it's a trip. It never, it never gets old to me. Just to think about perspective and the changes that you can go through just within your own mind, just by subtle shifts in perspective.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , it's interesting. Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Subtle turns into huge, you know. Yeah. In a lot of ways. And stuff that's beautiful that you're able to have some kind of reference like that to look back at, you know? Um, yeah. Yeah. I've never had anything like that, so, uh, I can't really share any of the, um, feeling with about that.

Tony McCloskey: But other than pictures maybe, but yeah, I

seventh and eighth grade, we [: 01:18:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Okay. So lights, we had a lightsaber battle. Mm-hmm. and it looked really good. , I was like really impressed with Alex Max, uh, computer animation work. Yeah. But, uh, interesting. Yeah, it was cool, but I, it made me think. . Imagine how many memories are gonna be accessible to this generation of kids. Yeah, maybe too many.

Jeff Nesbitt: They're not gonna be able to even find them. Oh, no. The AI will definitely fix that. Oh, yeah. Well, it already has. Like my phone sends me slideshows of wonderful, beautiful moments with music and everything, just without me even asking. Mm-hmm. . It's like, thank you phone. Yeah, this is nice. Your

Tony McCloskey: memories from last year or whatever.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Some of that stuff they pull up. They're pretty

Jeff Nesbitt: good. Yeah. But there's other software that is much better that we'll do. Jump cuts and fades and all kinds of different effects and, and like analyze your pictures and videos and make it fit to the music and Wow. It's just incredible interesting how good they can do.

Jeff Nesbitt: [: 01:19:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, it was, it was, uh, you know, dogs die. That's just part of the deal, but it was horrible. And, um, my daughter was three at the time, so just the age that she was, it has impacted her a lot and it's become like this kind of emotional lightning rod for any time she's upset. Mm-hmm. , uh, when without being able to attribute it to something specific, it will just be, she just misses Daisy.

couple songs about it. Wow. [: 01:20:00

Jeff Nesbitt: and things like that.

Jeff Nesbitt: No, that's wonderful though. Oh, it was fun.

Jeff Nesbitt: [: 01:21:00

Tony McCloskey: Celebration of

Jeff Nesbitt: life, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, Basically just said like, Hey, I want it to fit this song. And it just did it. It's, it was really cool. I, I, I, I had to tweak it a little bit where it was kind of a, uh, clumsy, but it just, it's getting really good.

Jeff Nesbitt: Things are gonna be, uh, for creatives. Things are gonna get really fast very soon. Mm-hmm. . .

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. That's fabulous. Um, I'm glad that you had access to that, you know? Um, and that you had the desire to do it and turn something that is probably a pretty monumental time for her mm-hmm. into something that, um, might be a little less painful, you know?

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. In some way. And that's,

e, even though it's a, it's, [: 01:24:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , um, I get to like, have these experiences where I feel these deep human feelings and a lot of. I've heard about for forever and, but never experienced it. And then so when it actually comes, it's like, oh, this is that horrible pain that everyone talks so much about. Mm-hmm. and it makes me feel very real.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. and I like that part of it. So it's, it's, there's some benefit to it.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. And I like that you're able to transmute it into something else too and not be, um, have. Pain be a memory of just pain, you know? Yeah. And, and to carry that burden with you and, and, you know, transmuting, I think difficult situations into something beautiful, I think is, is, is really the big lesson.

eaching her that too. And so [: 01:25:00

Tony McCloskey: But it also comes from somewhere else. You had to wanna access that platform. You had to want to put in those pictures. You had to wanna change that memory. Yeah. Or alter that memory into something that's balanced versus something that's just ugly,

Jeff Nesbitt: you know? Yeah, definitely. I had it in my head like the whole time I had the dog, cuz she had.

Jeff Nesbitt: Weird habit, uh, of, I mean, it's not weird. Most dogs carry sticks, but she would find the biggest stick she could find like trees. Uh, I'm talking like six, seven feet long, like four or five inches thick. What kind of dog was it? Uh, she was a golden retriever, yellow lab mix. Mm-hmm. . And um, but she was like 90 pounds.

ith so much pride. , there's [: 01:26:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Those are my dog sticks that she just brought back from the beach. Mm-hmm. over the five year period. Oh wow. And it's, I mean, the piles pile of pride, it's like 20 feet long. It's a giant pile of logs, , and, um, so I have tons of pictures of her with. obscenely large, uh, Beachwood sticks in her mouth, in, in all different settings and different, , weather and all kinds of stuff.

Jeff Nesbitt: So I was always like taking these pictures and like, oh my God, when this dog croaks, I'm gonna have the best slideshow of these sticks. Mm-hmm. . so I, I had that in my head and kind of like as a, it'll probably never happen anyway. People don't go to dog funerals. Mm-hmm. , where would I play this?

ying a stick. Mm-hmm. . So I [: 01:27:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. That's wonderful. Wonderful. You're looking out for that and Yeah, and anticipating it, you know, and um, like I said, it's just such a healthy way to look at life and, uh, sometimes challenging in that without stuff like that. And so, you know, putting that in place, you know, it's inspiring me to be honest.

Tony McCloskey: You know, I mean, you know, any kind of loss is really hard and especially when it's very personal. Um, you know, and especially I imagine probably the first time I imagine she's, she's had any kind of real kind of visceral loss and so, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So that's wonderful. That's wonderful

Jeff Nesbitt: to hear. Yeah.

my sis, my older sister and [: 01:28:00

Jeff Nesbitt: My parents had her, uh, when they started having kids, I think, and she didn't make it past, like, I was probably four or five when, when I think our neighbors kidnapped her or something. Mm-hmm. , but, um, kidnapped her dog. Her, I'm sorry. Oh, . Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It was one of those weird things. She just disappeared.

Jeff Nesbitt: Huh. Who knows? That was. , regardless of how a dog disappears, you don't necessarily tell

Tony McCloskey: the four-year old. Well, that's the worst because then you don't know what happened. Right. Yeah. To be honest, I really don't know. Spinning it in your head, like, what the hell? Yeah.

Jeff Nesbitt: And think of all these. I wanted to have that for my kid.

d see that future and I, um, [: 01:29:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , do you, do you believe in any of that stuff manifesting? Do you, uh, do you know what I'm talking about?

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. You know, I've heard, uh, some different lectures on stuff like that. I don't know. You know, um,

Jeff Nesbitt: it's one of those things that doesn't seem like magic to me. Yeah. It just seems like probability.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. it, like if you're so manifesting in the terms, I'm ex I'm understanding it. You have a, a desired goal state you would like to achieve or to be in. And so when you focus on that, it's going to align you in your energy and in your attention to, toward that goal. So you're facing it. Mm-hmm. rather than when you're working from a point of reactivity and you're trying to avoid the futures that you don't want, you're, you're facing those still.

just assume you're gonna go [: 01:30:00

Jeff Nesbitt: then you're going to start moving in that, in that direction. That just makes sense to me. And that's pretty much what manifesting is. You say, I'm, I'm there. You try to. Place yourself in a place of, in a state of gratitude for that moment as if it has already occurred. Mm-hmm. . And then your brain supposedly doesn't know the difference between feeling in time and, and feeling in the, like in present time and feeling in the future.

Jeff Nesbitt: So it reacts as if you have already got that thing mm-hmm. and then somehow it manifests in your life. I'm not sure exactly what the science of that would be, but it doesn't seem, doesn't seem that crazy. No, I think

t to avoid or, um, you know, [: 01:31:00

Tony McCloskey: You know, sometimes spending too much time thinking about obstacles really divert your attention away from your goal. And I think you, anything is possible when you have enough passion and you reach out for it and you stay, um, undistracted from your goal, you know, and unattached and unattached

Jeff Nesbitt: to the, like, you, you need to be okay if you fail.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Ahead of time. Mm-hmm. be like, yeah. And if I fail, I don't care. Yeah. You need your

Tony McCloskey: failures, really. Yeah. I mean, gosh, I think every, you know, major presence that you. Public presence or successful, what we consider successful presence. They had a thousand failures to get to that point. To get to that point in their

Jeff Nesbitt: life.

had a lot of failures in his [: 01:32:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. . And that was like the major thing people were saying, like, he's been bankrupt so many times, he's all had all these failed universities and what Trump's stakes or whatever. Mm-hmm. like a lot of companies that went under and all this, these problems. But he's still the, he's the president now. Yeah.

Jeff Nesbitt: So like he did something right. He made it there somehow. So I, I, you gotta give him props for that. But, um, that was like, Somehow Teflon dawn, people would, , still bring that, this guy's a failure. What, what? We should get rid of him. But as if that was justification, but I don't, I don't think it is the pussy grabbing thing I think would be enough.

Jeff Nesbitt: But

to, um, To pay any attention [: 01:33:00

Jeff Nesbitt: of muddling and should be illegal.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah.

m, that aside, like I have a [: 01:34:00

Jeff Nesbitt: at least.

Jeff Nesbitt: Idealistically. Yeah. Like, it, it was just like, like aspirationally.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. And that so many people just chose not to, to, you know, To see that part of it. You know, it was just, it was really kind of disheartening. I think. It felt

f Nesbitt: like people were, [: 01:35:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. or, or Koth.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Is Koh a word? I know unth is a word, but it's opposite of Unth. He's not, you just made it a word. So , so Donald Trump is, uh, yeah. He's not Koth. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But then it seems like, okay, if the Republican, largely Christian Wright is okay with this guy. Mm-hmm. , pussy grabbing and all.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm. , does that just mean it's okay? Like I, that seems off. Yeah. That, that doesn't seem right, but it did allow, it was allowed to go like it went through. Yeah.

azy. I was pretty shocked by [: 01:36:00

Tony McCloskey: And that, that the impulse that he brought into the political scene, despite all those kind of distractions about his personal character, are still ones that were needed at the time to kind of challenge some of the, um, the bigger, um, controlling factors of, of what goes on in our government and, and to question it, you know?

Tony McCloskey: And to me, that was the only argument I ever heard that. I was on board with. Yeah. Like, you know, I had to let go of who I, I think he is as a person, and see the bigger picture of the message and the change that he's trying to promote in our governmental system. And, uh, I, I listened, I listened to that argument and I gave it a lot of thought.

ubject matter that's kind of [: 01:37:00

Tony McCloskey: And

Jeff Nesbitt: yeah, I felt the same way. Yeah. And I still kind of do. Mm-hmm. I had, I had that experience several times throughout presidency. Mm-hmm. Where it was just like, Yeah, I agree with a lot of the things that he is actually saying right now. And, and I, and I would feel like reasonable people in the same boat be like, yeah, he's kind of right about that.

r, or like mm-hmm. says some [: 01:38:00

Jeff Nesbitt: And at a certain point I just got to be like, that's who he is. Yeah. He, he looks for these opportunities where people are starting to be like, maybe he's okay. And that's when he'll get you mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: But

Tony McCloskey: so much turbulence surrounding that guy.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. So, oh, it's not over either. It's, we're just getting ready for the next run. Mm-hmm. , I wonder if that will be the candidate for the Republican party. I can't see it not being,

Tony McCloskey: yeah, I don't know. You know, I could think of better ones, but actually I can't, cuz I don't really keep up with the political scene all that much.

Tony McCloskey: Um, but I hope to someday, you know, I hope, I mean, I definitely. I was really, I, I spoke to my boss at the port a little bit about this the other day. Like I was really happy. I don't know, this is kind of like, I'm not really choosing a side cuz I don't believe in the, you know, division that I think left and right wing and it's an illusion, blue and red, you know, causes in our country.

st dichotomy. Yeah. I really [: 01:39:00

Tony McCloskey: Like people that I believe in when they talk and they're not talking because they're trying to present an idea, they're talking because this is who I am. You know what I mean? And he,

Jeff Nesbitt: at the very least, they gotta. Sell it. Yeah. Like, even if that's not the truth. Mm-hmm. , which for most politicians at that level, it's probably not, but you gotta be able to make us feel like it is.

Jeff Nesbitt: Obama was by far our coolest president. Yeah. I would like to hang out with

Tony McCloskey: that guy. I, yeah. That's the, that's the impulse that I got from him. It's like he's somebody I could totally hang out with. Yeah. You know, and not feel like I'm, you know. You know, I'm lesser of a person or any of that stuff. Like, he had a very authentic feel to him.

is presentation of something [: 01:40:00

Tony McCloskey: I never voted for him. I never, I still didn't vote back then, but I, out of all the presidents that have come and gone since. , um, you know, since back in the day, last person I think I, I voted for was Ross Perrot

Jeff Nesbitt: or something like that. Holy shit. I knew you were gonna say that something else . I really did. I heard the, the name was in my head before you said it.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, it was

Tony McCloskey: a while ago. Ross Perrot. . Mm-hmm. . And I didn't know shit about politics back then, you know?

Jeff Nesbitt: Um, you just didn't want Bush again, I guess. I don't know who I was that the one, it was Bush. Bush, the one that he kind of, yeah. He kept him from getting a second term.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I'm not sure. I don't remember even that much back then.

Tony McCloskey: And that's another thing. I'm not, I'm formed enough to really vote. I don't ever feel like I really know the issues enough. There was four, four

Jeff Nesbitt: channels back then. Yeah. Four channels and no internet. Yeah. So you knew what everybody else knew. Yeah. Bill Clinton, like that was right before the Clinton scandal and all that.

Jeff Nesbitt: I, I was in [: 01:41:00

Jeff Nesbitt: that doesn't exist anymore. Mm-hmm. , you go to the grocery store and start a conversation with somebody about something you just read, you better fill them in all the way cuz they probably didn't read it. Mm-hmm. , it's like everyone has different news, everyone has a different sources of information and it's, it's confusing.

Jeff Nesbitt: It makes it so much harder to feel like a cohesive nation. Mm-hmm. like a, any sense of civic duty or, or kind of like, Just impulse to be better to your fellow man. Mm-hmm. , it really probably goes way down when we're not all living in the same reality. Mm-hmm. , which is how it feels.

one before where, you know, [: 01:42:00

Tony McCloskey: Right. And not some kind of propaganda Right. For you to side with whatever, um, narrative that they want you to side or agenda that they want you to side with. And so yeah, that's a trip, that's a tricky subject matter because, um, sometimes I think that there is very clear agenda driven. Media and, um, and to have options to see outside of that, you know, and, and be balanced enough in your own space, like you said, or, or suggested, you know, to not just have the confirmation bias of the side that you agree with and start to look at other people's side too and, and kind of get this balance point of view.

unity in our country, or at [: 01:43:00

Tony McCloskey: And, and to incite that much, um, Uh, emotional charging into our community, I think is, is, is not, is not right. And, um, it doesn't

Jeff Nesbitt: represent the situation the way it really is. It makes it seem like one side is gonna win and the other side's gonna lose. Yeah. And then you're losers for four years. Yeah. At least.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. And it's

Tony McCloskey: not the case and it's right and wrong. And there's no right and wrong because every site has it's, you know, it's, um, you know, it's benefit, it's it's color, it's uh, it's beauty, you know, and every site, every side has the stuff that they need to work on too. You know what I mean? And so, and whoever

Jeff Nesbitt: wins, we all get a president.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. No [: 01:44:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. And we need that contrast to kind of sometimes help us, uh, focus on what is important and what's Yeah. Maybe not less important.

Jeff Nesbitt: You know, it helps to steer the ship. Mm-hmm. keep us going in a straight line.

Jeff Nesbitt: You can't lean too hard one direction or the other, it'll crash. Mm-hmm. .

Tony McCloskey: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff Nesbitt: Speaking of balance, let's talk about acupuncture. Okay. Do you get acupuncture yourself?

Tony McCloskey: I used to, yeah. Yeah. More so when I was in school cuz we could treat each other for free and we'd go to the clinic for free. And, um, um, not so much here just because, you know, I usually can't afford it to be honest.

Tony McCloskey: And, uh, it's definitely not the same experience that, you know, do needles on yourself. I've tried that occasionally. If something's really, really outta whack, like I'll, I'll start kneeling myself. But, uh, typically I don't do it unless it's pretty. I imagine that would be hard. Pretty extreme. Yeah. But I enjoy it and I love it.

Tony McCloskey: And my only [: 01:45:00

Tony McCloskey: And so,

Jeff Nesbitt: um, you think you'll ever take on an apprentice? I don't know, just teach them exactly how you want it and then have them do it.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I mean, I would never do that. Like, I would never teach them exactly the way

Jeff Nesbitt: I want it. No, I mean, I don't mean only that. Teach them all the good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But like, that was somebody around who, you know, who's like, yeah, this is what I like.

Jeff Nesbitt: And you don't have to have the risk of like trying a bunch of strangers.

ably share that, but I don't [: 01:46:00

Tony McCloskey: Mature in my practice to, to really feel like I have that much to give yet, you know? Mm-hmm. , like, I'm learning a lot of it on my own. I got into acupuncture late in my healthcare career, so, you know, this is still a pretty new thing for me. You know, I have a vision of what I want it to be and what I, I hope to accomplish with it, but, uh, I definitely feel like I'm far away from that, you know, the, the fruits of that vision.

Tony McCloskey: Mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. .

Jeff Nesbitt: Well, that's cool. You have a plan. Yeah. That's, that's the best part is, is having a plan and moving forward towards a goal. Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. It can be. It's pretty intimidating to you though, because there's a lot to learn about it. It's very in-depth, it's very elaborate. Um, there's a lot of, um, scholarly.

Tony McCloskey: Precedence to it. And you know, I'm kind of burnt on reading cuz I've been doing it for so long and it's hard for me to engage, uh, in that capacity.

Jeff Nesbitt: I bet a lot of that's old writing too, huh? Yeah. Yeah. So it's probably even harder

Tony McCloskey: to read and [: 01:47:00

Tony McCloskey: It's more of an idea versus like, cut and dry. This is, you know, the definition. It's, it's very little. From what I'm gathering of translations very l very small in the area of like definite and very broad in the area of like potential of variety. Variety. There's a lot of variety of the characters

Jeff Nesbitt: that sounds very much more true to life.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. than the dsm. Yeah. Or just like a series of check boxes. Either check 'em

tart to learn about how deep [: 01:48:00

Tony McCloskey: If you really dig in deep, you know,

Jeff Nesbitt: uh, they need subject really. Mm-hmm. , it's like you could just go and go Yeah. Get into the minutia.

Tony McCloskey: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So parts of that's intimidating, but I definitely feel like I'm at a place where I'm comfortable with what I want to pursue and, uh, I definitely kind of have, um, my sights on when I'm.

Tony McCloskey: able to, to really dig into the things that really draw me. And I needed to practice for a while to figure out what's really drawing me. Mm-hmm. in as far as things I want to, you know, invest time into improving, you know, and stuff like that. But yeah, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful medicine. I like the holistic.

initely, more inclusion into [: 01:49:00

Tony McCloskey: Um, that'll probably make it less

Jeff Nesbitt: challenging. Mm-hmm. ,

Tony McCloskey: you know, there's a lot more integration potential. Some hospitals I've heard have acupuncture floors or departments that are completely dedicated and, uh, it's good to see that, you know, I mean, I think that's the, that's the real goal of trying to get as much variety and versatility in the healthcare system as, as we can in order to solve as many problems as we can.

Tony McCloskey: You know, there's a lot of things that can't be solved with, um, even the, you know, the, the mighty, uh, scientifically driven. Devices and, and diagnostics and, and thought that we have in, in biomedicine. Um, and so there's, you know, and then just collaboration, right? Like, I think one of the biggest things that I think is missing maybe with, um, you know, the contemporary system is like, we specialize everything and we push it all off onto this person that spends their whole life doing it.

hat's great. You know, those [: 01:50:00

Jeff Nesbitt: the foremost expert on your body other than you? Like you're there.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. And you have the time.

Tony McCloskey: This is another thing too, like, I see, you know, or have heard or get the impression that, you know, sometimes, We have a tendency to, as physicians or clinicians to discount a person's interpretation of their own body because, you know, it's so easy to get online and start looking at symptoms and then you Yeah, before you know it, you have 20 diagnosis.

Tony McCloskey: You know, I

Jeff Nesbitt: get that. Why that would be hard. Mm-hmm. , but it, it, that kind of cuts both ways cuz it's. , it's infuriating to be, to get that look from your doctor when you've done research and you, you, you feel like you know what you're talking about. Yeah. And you say, Hey look, this is what I've seen. What, and they don't even respond to what you said.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , they're just write you off and like, oh, you know, everybody gets on WebMD. It's like, oh, that feels shitty.

e not a, a scholar that's of [: 01:51:00

Tony McCloskey: Then you're gonna be in your 15 minute session that you're ordering labs and, and doing your medications or whatever. And now it's denouncing any of the schooling that they go through. Cuz it's very rigorous and they definitely learn a lot of things, uh, physicians and nurses and all that stuff. But, you know, you need to be able to assimilate what people are saying.

Tony McCloskey: And I think, you know, . If you have an opinion that is counter to what they're saying, explain it. Explain it to them, and don't treat them like they can't understand what you're thinking or, or the thought processes or the depth of your knowledge. It doesn't matter. You know, you, you need to be able to give them something to let them know, like, you know, okay, well I can see that, but this is why I don't see it, you know, and, and X, Y and Z or this research or, you know, I've seen a lot of, you know, this similar presentation with these kind of patients that turned out to be something completely different.

ey: So that's why, you know, [: 01:52:00

Jeff Nesbitt: uh, they probably think it makes them look. Fallible. Yeah, because it does, I mean, it makes it look like you're, it's a, it's an iterative process.

Jeff Nesbitt: You're figuring it out as you go. Yeah. Because we know you're back there Googling stuff. Yeah,

Tony McCloskey: yeah. Like, it's okay. And you don't want to invalidate somebody else's time that they put into investing in themselves and learning about themselves, you know, and, and help guide them. You know, it's really about guidance.

Tony McCloskey: Like, you know, this is, you can teach people how to be educated and informed in their research gathering as well. And, um, I think that's sometimes a bit of a missing link in our system, and I think could be treated a little bit with a little bit more, um,

Jeff Nesbitt: Delicacy. Yeah. We don't have to completely outsource the medical thought to the doctors.

bably don't want to do that. [: 01:53:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Just to, so when I go into a doctor's office, it's, it's like a must. If they, if they can't let me talk and like, explain and ask questions and stuff, it's not gonna be a good relationship. Yeah. And I've only recently found a doctor who actually lets me do that, and I, she's fantastic. Mm-hmm. , um, they're gold,

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Yeah. I

Jeff Nesbitt: almost feel like there could be two parallel systems. The standard medical business, which is now in place where the goal is ultimately to, to treat people's symptoms and extract profit from them.

all, all whatever, whatever [: 01:54:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Like everything's, you know, scientifically researched. I think those two systems could operate completely independently of each other.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I think, you know, it's a matter of how you measure success too, right?

Tony McCloskey: Like Yeah. You know, um, capitalistic culture, we, uh, we measure success by accumulation, you know, and so, um, and at the, sometimes at the expense of, of, you know, of different, uh, factors and so, you know, We can still be successful without having to be rich. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we don't need a lot of that stuff.

Tony McCloskey: And, and it's just how we look at, at success in our, in our culture sometimes is, is, you know, kind of challenging.

Jeff Nesbitt: But that, that's a weird one too, because it's so ingrained, at least in my mind, just probably most Americans, that money does equal success. Mm-hmm. , like once you have that money, that's how you're successful.

I don't think that's really [: 01:55:00

Tony McCloskey: I think, you know, one of the things that I've learned about. , you know, natural medicine or holistic medicine, as that nature will correct itself. It always does. So it can't get too far outta whack before something will, will, um, pull it back in and reign it in.

Tony McCloskey: And so, uh, there is some solace in that. I think, you know, there's definitely, um, some encouragement there. And I think we're seeing it, you know, for a long time, alternative medicine wasn't even, um, a thing, you know, it was very rare. You could, if you could even find it at all. And, you know, now it has a lot more visibility, has a lot more traction.

e therapy was so big that it [: 01:56:00

Tony McCloskey: To look at it. Oh, with seriousness, you know, and to start to look at inclusion, right? Because they're leaving money on the table. They're, they're missing out on all this stuff. And people are, are that convinced or, or that, um, impassioned to seek out that, or whatever the reason is, uh, to seek out that kind of therapy that, you know, they're willing to, to shell out their own money to do it.

Tony McCloskey: And I think that's a powerful message and that's one that has shifted, um, how, you know, the medical system has progressed to this day. And I think it, it's encouraging at times to, to see that, you know, I've also heard of this model recently, as is beautiful. This is one of the most, um, encouraging stories I've heard of recently.

of healthcare that's primary [: 01:57:00

Tony McCloskey: I don't know a whole lot about it. It's not my specialty. Um, but for like a monthly fee, you know what I mean? And like, oh wow. Yeah. And it's like reasonable. It's like a hundred bucks a month, you know, and you can see 'em whenever you want. You can get same day appointments if you call early enough. And uh, I was like, how the hell.

minutes [: 01:58:00

Tony McCloskey: Thousands of people that need to come in and see 'em. And so, and you can

Jeff Nesbitt: feel that you don't even wanna burden them with your thousand questions. Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Just like that. Yeah. And so their, their hands are tied, uh, in some ways too, which is, is kind of unfortunate, and that's a big system issue. But, um, you know, to me this was, sounded like a very good solution to it.

Tony McCloskey: And the guy from what I saw on his site, completely reasonable with his pricing. You know, like, you know, um, for me, a hundred dollars a month is less than most insurance companies charge. And that's for, you know, everything but emergency care, you know? Uh, and so, well not everything, but a lot of things. I mean, he had surgical procedures up there for like 500 bucks.

Tony McCloskey: Wow. Of vasectomy for like 500 bucks. Like where do you get a surgical procedure for like, less than a thousand dollars? You know, a lot of

Jeff Nesbitt: procedures. I wonder if he's the one who did my vasectomy is Dr. Baxter. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. I think, I feel like he might be, I had him e either he relo, like he, uh, It helped me when I dislocated my knee.

Jeff Nesbitt: [: 01:59:00

Tony McCloskey: But I, I like the idea of the model, right. Like, yeah, that sounds awesome. Yeah. It's, uh, it's very, you know, um, very encouraging to see that and he, it sounds like there's a movement in our country right now to simulate that model, or he's simulating, you know, somebody else's idea.

Tony McCloskey: Whatever it is. It seems very realistic and, and very needed. And, you know, I think, you know, financial exclusion from services will be less of a thing with that kind of model, you know, and that's, that's another big thing. You know, we have a lot of stuff that can be done with contemporary medicine, you know, with contemporary medicine that people just don't have the money to pursue.

d being sustainable, um, uh, [: 02:00:00

Tony McCloskey: You know, they call exponential growth. Yeah. Your conversation with your body. And so, um, I was really encouraged to see that and hope to learn more about it at some point. That's the kind of. Model that I wanna support. You know, like, that sounds amazing.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Yeah. I should get him on the podcast. Yeah. I'm sure he doesn't have a lot of time.

Jeff Nesbitt: Sounds like a busy man,

Tony McCloskey: but I don't know. They, they limit their patient loads. He has a waiting list. I know that much. And then he, he limits his patient load, I think, from what I saw on the explanation of how that model works to like 500 people. So it, um, it allows for him to get same day appointments with people or next day appointments.

ducation cuz he still can be [: 02:01:00

Tony McCloskey: And I thought, I think it's beautiful. So I, I'm glad for, uh, the gal I spoke to that, um, shared that information with me and, and it's encouraging to see those kind of changes. Like that's

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, that's huge. Yeah. That's a big shift. Yeah. There's that, a story of birth center also that's a kind of an alternative, uh, to the traditional birthing system.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. like, and it's just, uh, Rebecca Orton, she was a guest on the show. Oh, okay. And, uh, she just much like you saw holes in the system and realized that there was a kind of a service vacuum mm-hmm. and she just decided to open this clinic and now they're, they're really successful and people love it.

Jeff Nesbitt: Good for her. Yeah. .

t, it shows when you have a, [: 02:02:00

Jeff Nesbitt: make 'em bad doctors to no, to be said, like mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: that. I, I really think that that is a, a bonus almost if their, if their heart is in it for the right reasons, also probably will help with longevity. Like, I can't imagine burnout, uh, not happening if you're not emotionally invested in your work. Yeah. When you're working like that. Mm-hmm. because that's hard.

Jeff Nesbitt: But,

Tony McCloskey: but it helps these other people that really kind of branch out and do their own thing really stand out and really brings success to those people too, that have that passion. And that's ballsy.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. That'd be really hard to do that. Yeah. Branch out from such a, an established system that you're already a part of.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. [: 02:03:00

Tony McCloskey: You know, connection really is. What it comes down to. And so that's great. That's great that those kind of things are happening and I'm encouraged a lot more encouraged these days to hear that. So

Jeff Nesbitt: yeah, connection is exactly what it is. Mm-hmm. , that's because you can feel that kind of like resistance to wanting to go to the doctor if you know that you're gonna leave frustrated.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. and most likely not helped, which is probably a pretty good chance most, most of the time, especially if you're not exactly sure what's wrong with you. Mm-hmm. . And you just go in there and be like, I just don't feel good. I want you to tell me what's wrong with me. Mm-hmm. , and, you know, you don't get what you want.

you out with the exact same [: 02:04:00

Tony McCloskey: totally, it's totally a thing. And uh, and that's part of the therapy too.

Tony McCloskey: Like a lot of people don't, uh, maybe wanna, uh, calculate that into their research or whatever, but it. It's, it's about intervention, but it's also about connection. Like, you know, like we're just talking about like part of the therapy when I, when we have our sessions together and talking about life and, and you know, we kind of have a podcast every session.

Tony McCloskey: And so, um, You know, that's where the healing begins. The healing begins, right when you step on the property and what the property looks like and, and what the environment looks like inside your office and what the feel is of, of your staff and what the feel is of, uh, other clients and,

Jeff Nesbitt: and the puppy. You brought a puppy in the mix.

a puppy. I was like, yes. I [: 02:05:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. It's an energetic thing, right? I mean, it's, uh, it brings joy and, and. That already shifts your

Jeff Nesbitt: day. Yeah. A lot of times, you know, I'm super sensitive to energy. Mm-hmm. , like good and bad, and I also emit a lot of it. Mm-hmm. , sometimes I turn off the wifi. Mm-hmm. , but it's, yeah. Good for you. . It's, it's a very real thing and I've always felt it, but never really put any thought into it whatsoever.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , I've just always thought of myself as a sensitive person. Mm-hmm. , um, but always kind of as a derogatory term. Uh, but it's not, it's, it's not at all sensitivity is, is not a, a downside to, to your way of being. No, it's a, it's really, it can be a gift. It's totally, it's just, it's just something that, it's like a high powered telescope.

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm-hmm. , you don't wanna point that thing at the sun, like Yeah. . Yeah.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah.

Jeff Nesbitt: That's a good way to look at it. It's sensitive . Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

rtant. Mm-hmm. and important [: 02:06:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. . Yeah. I think that's where empathy comes from, right? And you know, for different professions, you know, you know, every profession has its ideal qualities that they're, you know, I think help people excel. Sensitivity and healthcare, I think are a very good compatible mix and, um, and, and all things of in life relationships too, right?

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Like if you don't have sensitivity, you know, I don't think you really have a recipe for very successful relationships. I'll tell you the

Jeff Nesbitt: place where it's a, where it's a burden. Government work. Uhhuh. . You need to be cold and heartless. Really? I think so. I think it makes you better. Okay. Uh, in terms of authority, it's.

fficer mm-hmm. , um, I would [: 02:07:00

Jeff Nesbitt: Mm. Because I'm way too forgiving. Mm-hmm. , I'm, I'm willing to accept your apology . Mm-hmm. And let you go on with your life as long as you promise mm-hmm. , you're not gonna do it again. Yeah. And if you do it again, and you're convincing Yeah, exactly. Hope your promise. Exactly. Um, because I want to believe the best in people mm-hmm.

Jeff Nesbitt: but some people are shitty and they will lie to you and they will get away with it if it's me. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. So they're, it's the, we need the people who are shrewd mm-hmm. and just kind of uncouth Yeah. To, to keep 'em rain.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. Same with the military too. You know, like, I don't think a soldier would be very good if they're, you know, pretty squeamish about, you know, uh, doing some of the jobs that are, are needed in that, in that profession.

Tony McCloskey: And, and so there's yeah. Definitely professions where there's, you know, not a big need for it, you know, that's, that's the thing is

Jeff Nesbitt: it takes all kinds of people to do this thing and finding your

attributes are and what your [: 02:08:00

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. And

Jeff Nesbitt: building up your weaknesses. So that's definitely a big part of it. Mm-hmm. , well, before we get outta here, why don't you tell people where they can get ahold of you, find your, find your information in case they want to schedule appointments or, uh, okay. Or just call and have a conversation with you.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah, yeah. Um, so I practice out of, uh, the Earthlight Massage building, uh, in Long Beach, Washington. I am about a half a block south of the post office. There. Um, used to be umbrellas. Yeah. Okay. . I'm new to the area, so I, I'm not

Jeff Nesbitt: sure about it's history. Been a while. It's been a while. Yeah. Actually my, uh, my mother-in-law used to run umbrellas.

Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, okay. Carla, down the road. Oh, okay. Small town stuff. What's some umbrellas? It was a tanning salon slash I think, uh, hair salon, I think, I think piercings maybe too. Okay. This is a, yeah. One of those places of the late, uh, early, early two thousands when there was tanning salons everywhere. Mm-hmm. . I was hitting them up.

Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, okay. I had a beautiful golden

Tony McCloskey: [: 02:09:00

Tony McCloskey: You know, there's a lot of history here. Yeah. It really is. When you start talking to people, they're, uh, very connected. This is a very connected place. I, I really like that very supportive place. You know, it's got a really good feel here. There's a lot of variety. There's a lot of, um, there's a lot of good vibes here.

Tony McCloskey: You know what I mean? I agree. And so I

Jeff Nesbitt: agree. I think it's a special place. It's a, I like raising kids here. It's, it's, I mean, it's got, it's, it's got it's, uh, scars. Mm-hmm. as does every place, but it's a, it's a beautiful place to.

Tony McCloskey: Yeah. I, I like it. I like the connectiveness here. You know, it's, uh, it's, it's interesting.

g and you're good at it. And [: 02:10:00

Tony McCloskey: into town. Yeah, yeah, no problem. I hope to do more good works, you know, uh, I'm trying my best still have a long way to go to really, uh, learn some of the, some of the stuff I've been exposed to.

Tony McCloskey: But, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm vigilant and, you know, I'm still in school. I'm still progressing my knowledge and, uh, I'm hoping to, you know, make changes where other people may not have been able to. So, we'll see. We'll see how that works out. And, uh, you know, I definitely, I enjoy it most of the time, you know, so that's important.

Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Yeah. That's real. I. So. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here. This has been a really, really good

Tony McCloskey: conversation. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me, Jeff. Uh, it's been a pleasure.

Jeff Nesbitt: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you very much. Talk to you guys later. All right, we'll

Tony McCloskey: see you. Bye-Bye.