Long Friendships Make Long Telomeres with Dr. Kim Patten

Kim Patten

intro

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[00:00:14] Yeah. Is Saturday, August 28th, 2021. Today, our guest is Dr. Kim Patton. Esteemed horticulturist from Washington state university. He has recently retired from a long career as extension professor. Yes, sir. A little time in his busy schedule. So he sat down and rambled with us. And I hope you enjoy it.

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[00:01:07] I just felt like I needed a happy song.

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[00:01:18] It's been a tough one this week. It's been a tough one. I've been super stressed. I'm getting ready to run hood to coast. It's a big relay race starts at the top of Mount hood and goes all the way to the ocean. It's like 200 miles. It's insane. 12 person teams, and I have to run three sections. It's not, it's not that bad.

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[00:02:03] So it's been stressful on top of that. I thought I was getting sick last weekend, started coughing up a little, you know, a little bit of blood and that freaked me out. So I went to the doctor. It turns out I'm fine. I got a bloody nose. And it bled into my body. Anyway, I'm not dying. I'm healthy. And I'm going to run, hopefully this dry weather doesn't chap sinuses anymore.

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[00:03:01] He's a Russian, I think he immigrated to the United States as a kid, but he still maintains a little bit of that Russian. Uh, it's, it's a pretty good show, but this most recent episode, he talks about freewill, which is a topic I like to think about. I like to discuss, and it was like good podcasts.

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[00:03:47] There's a lot of things we do that are very context driven. And I don't know, we might just be. A phenomena that is expressed as a result of a bunch of [00:04:00] interconnected factors and competing variables. And our behavior is what comes out of all that. So I don't know another good one is called Huberman lab podcast, and that's Andrew Huberman.

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[00:04:43] I've been pretty convinced that, you know, I'm pretty squared away as far as that goes, but I don't know, both these podcasts stood out to me because they made me challenge my view. Um, after listening I'm, you know, I'm pretty convinced that freewill is an [00:05:00] illusion. And I also learned that depression may not go away.

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[00:05:29] It feels like maybe it could help people. So I'm going to talk about it really quickly. Mostly just because if you're out there and you feel sad for no reason or you're, you're feel hopeless, or if you're, I mean, maybe you do have a reason, maybe, maybe something triggered you and it's been six months and you're still feeling sad.

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[00:06:18] And it really is a hard one to see. I've been dealing with it for a long time. And I, I can kind of see the signs. I know when it's coming and I know what to look for. And I know the lies that it tells me about who I am and what I'm doing, but it's still gets me, even when you know what's going on. It doesn't really negate the feelings of emptiness, hopelessness, sadness.

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[00:07:19] It's not just sad either. I've been super irritable, just feeling like I'm overworked paranoid, starting to just not thinking the way I like to think. So I need to just scale back, I think, take a little bit more time to rest. Make sure I'm getting my sleep. Make sure I'm eating healthy food, talking to people that's that's all you can do.

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[00:08:12] I want to give a special shout out to Alison Brooks and Kelsey burrito. Sorry about the fucking birds on the roof.

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[00:08:30] Get out of here. Your damn birds.

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[00:09:03] And it's just getting off the ground, but I'm excited about it. I think that's going to be a really cool spot, a place where the audience can connect and we can all create a little committee. I really hesitated to do a Patrion. I wasn't sure if I was ever going to do it, but I, I just had to, eventually this show doesn't cost me a ton of money, but it does cost a little bit and it takes a lot of time away from my family.

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[00:09:52] And then after that, have to worry about what I say to please the advertisers and make sure I don't lose sponsors and all that. It's [00:10:00] just, nah, I'd rather just make something that people want and then ask them to pay me a couple bucks. And people who are happy to do that will do it. The free episodes will still be free and that's not going to change.

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[00:10:33] You're going to get updates. You're going to get behind the scenes stuff. You're going to get the early release stuff. You're going to get everything basically you're willing to pay. So I'm going to prioritize you as my audience. It's going to be great. I can't, I mean, I really can't wait. I think it's going to be an opportunity to really improve the show.

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[00:11:24] He is the recipient of the William peace, Stephan lifetime achievement award. And he's a great guy. In 2005, he took a chance on a pimple faced moody teenager, and he hired him as a research assistant. Spoiler alert that pimple faced teenager was me. Dr. Patton came into my life at a time when his timing couldn't have been better.

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[00:12:24] I had no other academic, like. Smart people who take their value from what they do and not who they can beat up or just all that shit with toxic masculinity. He was one of the first people to kind of show me that, that wasn't the only way. And I liked it. I had always been drawn to academia. I like knowledge and I like learning.

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[00:13:26] I had a decade of experience in a field that very few people have any experience in. And yeah, he basically gave me the ability to plug into this local community and make myself part of it to provide value to my home. And it really shaped who I became. So I have a huge set of data. Now I have a huge debt of gratitude.

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interview

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[00:00:02] Jeff Nesbitt: Um, so we are recording. That is four 14. We've got our kombucha because we're off and running. Um, so we were just talking about retirement and you have retired. It feels still feels recent, but how long has it been now?

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[00:00:27] Jeff Nesbitt: so. Right before the pandemic.

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[00:00:31] Jeff Nesbitt: Crazy timing. Yeah. Actually it was good timing. cause I wouldn't have known what to do. Yeah. It's like everybody kind of went home during that time.

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[00:00:50] So I, I would love to get a little of that information.

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[00:01:12] That's reasonably close to LA. Okay. So we're talking Southern Cal. So yeah, it's sort of, I

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[00:01:24] Kim Patten: I'm so sorry.

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[00:01:46] Jeff Nesbitt: Well, where's the spot.

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[00:01:52] Jeff Nesbitt: Is it

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[00:01:53] It's just down the road.

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[00:02:03] Kim Patten: It's just a lovely little run up the hill and get your heart pumping.

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[00:02:10] Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever do the bridge run?

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[00:02:27] and

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[00:02:33] I mean, also are going to do it. Oh, we did it three years ago.

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[00:02:40] Jeff Nesbitt: She wants to run as much as possible. I don't know about professor. She wants to be a teacher.

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[00:02:46] my

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[00:02:48] Kim Patten: I love the way that differences in the body shape between the, you know, the sprinters in the marathons.

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[00:02:55] Jeff Nesbitt: faster. It's a great time to look at bodies. Oh my gosh. The [00:03:00] specialization,

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[00:03:03] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Even like the speed walkers. People who are great at one thing, just

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[00:03:15] They, they, uh, we built a ski lodge there and, uh, lived there. My parents got divorced early. I think when I was about seven or eight or so on, I went to, I went to boarding school down in Carmel Carmel valley for a few years. And then my mother sold that we. Uh, lived in the bay area, went to a bunch of small schools in Marin county.

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[00:04:07] Wow. It was rough. It was rough. That, and that was when, you know, Martin Luther was assassinated. And so like, okay, I'm just not going to go to the bathroom today. And for the next year, and you know, going to the bathroom, you know, was sort of like

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[00:04:20] Kim Patten: school. It was a big school and it was rough.

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[00:04:49] Jeff Nesbitt: Really. Not at all surprises me. I was,

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[00:04:59] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:05:00] that I never would have known that. Yeah.

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[00:05:08] You know, just about finishing with my PhD. Oh, that's what it is. I'm not stupid. I can't string five words together, but I'm not, you know, it's just a learning and that's just the way their brain works. And then, you know, the rest of my other people, other nieces and nephews habit, and actually one of them committed suicide over it.

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[00:05:30] Jeff Nesbitt: So does it affect primarily your reading

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[00:05:48] I can't understand words if I write, keep and kept my brain doesn't know the difference. I can't figure out. I have to say. What do I use? [00:06:00] And I, I just don't know. It just sprain does not work. And some things it's, it's weird, but anyhow, um,

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[00:06:09] Kim Patten: always do that. Yeah.

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[00:06:20] Jeff Nesbitt: Winter, I have to think really hard and I need to just block everything else out. I do that. And if I'm in public, I'm like, you feel a little self-conscious and I always think about you cause I'm like, nah, Kim Patton does it.

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[00:06:42] Jeff Nesbitt: You're just limiting the input for processing power to go where it needs to go. Yeah.

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[00:06:56] And then I transferred to UC Davis where I . Um, [00:07:00] I eventually started to apply myself, so I graduated in plant science and then I went to graduate school in Iowa state in horticulture, in soil chemistry, and then met my wife. We got married there. And then we went to, um, Washington state university and got a PhD there.

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[00:07:36] Jeff Nesbitt: were you moving around so much?

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[00:07:48] And so it was different, you know, until we were in high school was almost a different school every year. And that's always rough for kids. I mean, you guys were fortunate, you were always in the same place you never [00:08:00] moved to, and that has some advantages in terms of friendship. And I think probably for that reason, I'm perfectly comfortable, not necessarily, you know, not necessarily having huge numbers of being with a lot of people are to doing stuff with my mom, by myself, et cetera, et cetera.

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[00:08:24] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. When you don't have a choice.

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[00:08:33] Jeff Nesbitt: do any brothers or

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[00:08:45] Uh, I have three, uh half-brothers and sisters that, uh, my father moved down to New Zealand, uh, and uh, had a sheep farm there in New Zealand. And so he remarried had three kids there. And so how old are you. [00:09:00] Uh, 12, if I recall

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[00:09:04] Kim Patten: Well, and it's, you know, it's it's life. I don't know how old you are, but, um,

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[00:09:12] It sucked.

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[00:09:32] Jeff Nesbitt: thank you so much for saying that that's, that's amazing.

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[00:09:39] Kim Patten: you guys were moody. Uh, I mean, uh, B yeah. That's I would say that leaves to say, but to put it nicely, you were troubled kids. Yeah. Yeah. How did she do that? I

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[00:09:54] Kim Patten: hard. Yeah. But gosh, and it gave you the, the strength and the fortitude and the grist [00:10:00] to develop into mature adults.

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[00:10:02] Jeff Nesbitt: you know, what I think it was is that she put faith into us and, and led her whole life through that, through that route where she actually, like, it felt purposeful, meaningful, because she thought she was. Making soldiers for Christ's army. Well,

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[00:10:21] , I don't

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[00:10:31] Kim Patten: I mean, that's the best you can and you're happy your family everyone's happy and they're healthy and they're mature adults and they're doing good for the world.

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[00:10:43] Jeff Nesbitt: hero she is. She is. Thank you for saying so she's

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[00:11:02] My daughter's, their RESA, senior research associate, or assistant at OSU or working with, um, in the addiction, uh, area. And my other daughter, my youngest. You probably know her the best because she was friends with gear. Your younger sister, uh, is works as a social, , health counselor at Seattle. Wow. So they're all doing well.

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[00:11:32] Jeff Nesbitt: oh, funny. Oh yeah. Right in the thick of it. Yeah. Yeah. So you liked your grandpa.

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[00:11:46] We do this. You had to, you had to, but it just seems as, as you know, most seniors, it's like, it's exhausting.

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[00:12:09] And it was really hard at first energy wise. And I remember thinking like, how am I going to do this until they're 18? Like when am I going to sleep? And it just got more and more intense from there.

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[00:12:30] You know, that are in the 60 seventies and eighties and have little babies. It was like, how do you do that? Oh my gosh. I know. And I know several that's like, wow.

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[00:12:39] Kim Patten: hard. Anyways, my first job was a Texas. Um, and I worked at Texas a and M for five years. It was a assistant professor and, uh, with a and M and doing, um, research, uh, in fruit and vegetables and sustainable agriculture.

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[00:13:21] Jeff Nesbitt: of those snowflakes

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[00:13:32] It's just not, you can't, uh, you try to adapt, you try to become part of that culture and it's just not there. You know, here I fit in is fine. I've

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[00:13:44] Kim Patten: Everyone should do that. Everyone should experience these cultures that are so sort of contrary to who you are, just because it's it challenges your, uh, I think yourself a

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[00:13:58] Like I went and lived in Arcada for a year [00:14:00] and California. That's a good place, a total liberal city. And then I lived in Bellingham for five years when it came back here. So it's all west coast. I've lived within a Rock's throw of the 1 0 1 for my whole life. Yeah. I like it out here and it lets me be kind of.

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[00:14:32] Kim Patten: Uh, yeah. Portland is interesting.

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[00:14:35] Jeff Nesbitt: It's kind of sad. The homelessness thing is the

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[00:15:00] What do you know processing what's going on? You know, Do I do. I can't. How, how do you, uh, sort of, uh, resolve all those issues that are going on inside you just walking down the street. Yeah. These are human beings and you have compassion for them. What's the proper response.

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[00:15:21] Yeah. What are you supposed to do? You can't help all these people.

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[00:15:29] Jeff Nesbitt: I used to really love it. , giving money to homeless people when there wasn't as many. And also I didn't have as much money. I had very little and it just like, I liked the Bible story where the lady tides like 2 cents or something.

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[00:16:01] So I would do that a lot and I actually have become far less charitable. Now that I have a steady income. I don't, I don't, I'm not as impulsive of a spender either. So that's probably, yeah.

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[00:16:16] Jeff Nesbitt: You need both, uh, you gotta have the generous part and then, you know, the tighten, the purse strings one.

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[00:16:27] Kim Patten: She's well we've , we are, um, taking care of her mother. Her mother is who she will turn nine. 99, I think, or 98 90, maybe she's 98 now she just turned 99. Uh, so she, we brought her in from Austria and, uh, because her partner died a couple of years ago and, uh, so she lives with us and we take care of her and she's, um, just having some glaucoma issues.

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[00:17:12] Jeff Nesbitt: So you're, you're pretty much

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[00:17:27] Oh, so you want to know funny story. Yes you do. So this is not for the public, of course not. you know, we live on sand Ridge deers get hit all the time. And the, uh, I was gone, I was over in Eastern Washington doing some work and some irrigation ditches. And I think, uh, I think there was a deer that got hit right on our yard.

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[00:18:20] And so it's, it's, it's sitting there in the well bear with his head hanging over the side and it was in good, good shape. It was a male or female. It was a, uh, male, I believe, young male. And I actually, I'm not sure the, um, and who comes driving down the driveway, but the federal game officer, and of course she has no idea that you're not supposed to be doing this and you can now, but bags is before this was back then because he was there.

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[00:19:11] Five feet away from this wheelbarrow with it.

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[00:19:35] Cause they were just shocked. I mean, he's just like these, these, you know, biologists that would have never killed a butterfly. And so anyways, it was that's as

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[00:19:55] Kim Patten: Well, yeah. Right. Well that depends on balances kind of a loaded

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[00:20:07] Kim Patten: to get rid of all the humans? Well,

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[00:20:09] Kim Patten: Ultimate invasive species,

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[00:20:16] We couldn't. But you just have to do it. I'm

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[00:20:24] Jeff Nesbitt: late to them already and told them it's on them. Yeah. I

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[00:20:31] Jeff Nesbitt: We'll change the world. I try to help. I hope something does.

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[00:20:37] Kim Patten: another one coming up. Uh, and so it's, uh, and these fires is, they're just terrifying. They're scary. I mean, it's just a, you,

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[00:20:50] Kim Patten: nurse. And that, that was amazing. Just that little fire there. Um, but the woods, everything is so dry.

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[00:21:23] Jeff Nesbitt: we chip up and just get with the program

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[00:21:31] just. One country or one, one state or one city or one person. I mean, it's a start, but realistically I'm, you know, I guess I'm somewhat of a pessimist in that regard, but you know, I think nature bats last and, uh, I think you just have to look at, uh COVID to see that. So maybe there's there's nature will come up with its own solutions.

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[00:22:44] Maybe.

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[00:23:01] Jeff Nesbitt: look what happened in the bay. Yeah. Yeah. You are one of the main people on that.

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[00:23:07] Jeff Nesbitt: All right. So we were just talking about Spartina and the Willapa bay.

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[00:23:27] Kim Patten: yeah, Spartina was, uh, actually it was, it almost cost me my job.

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[00:24:09] And so no metals yet. It was just a few clones and yeah, and they, all the clones had the names in their names, like the Monsanto clone and so forth like that.

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[00:24:34] Very nice fellow run. And, uh, but the, um, that sort of looked at glyphosate and gee, it, it worked well on that particular trial, but that was where, you know, pie in dry and it never wedded and sort of, kind of led this, this over the course of time for the registration of, of glyphosate. so we start at work.

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[00:25:18] Jeff Nesbitt: just to summarize for people, , you were involved through your position at WSU,

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[00:25:23] But I was a horticulturist and I'm was, I was, uh, under the department of horticulture and none of this was considered a horticulture. And so it's a publisher parish world for me. And so I was working in getting the stuff done and spar, tiny and department said, well, that doesn't count. I'm sorry.

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[00:26:04] And maybe other things, perhaps it's a flowering plant. Well, it didn't count. Cause that was, uh, you know, I had to do with pest management. I wasn't a, that wasn't where I supposed to be weed control, how to cultivate. I wasn't supposed to be working on weed control or pest management or. Biology or anything like that.

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[00:26:47] Jeff Nesbitt: That's actually what I wanted to ask about that. So the extension program is very substantial in this state. Can you explain what that is? Uh,

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[00:27:14] Uh, and those were then there was a triad, uh, there was research education and extension. So the extension part was to take the research, take it out to the farmers. And so, and then the education was sort of where the students and so forth. So that was sort of the fundamental basics of the land grant institution.

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[00:28:01] And we kind of do it in

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[00:28:28] Yeah. So I'm not, I'm not county bound. And so that was basically your regional. Or I would be working in Eastern Washington and all the time or up in Northern Washington and sober. So yeah. And you're just trying to solve

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[00:28:44] Kim Patten: basically the gist of it. You're trying to solve problems to assist the citizens of the state of Washington and the state of Washington, not necessarily agriculture, , it could be just the natural resources and so [00:29:00] forth.

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[00:29:13] Jeff Nesbitt: Youmust feel great.

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[00:29:22] Most of it is for not, but a few things actually work when you, you know, and a few things worked and it basically saved the bay. Um, because you needed, you solve something, you find a way to, to control Spartina. And that actually works and it was a very much a partnership. You know, we worked with the shellfish growers with the refuge, with, uh, Olympic national resource center.

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[00:30:13] I mean, it's the same tribalism it's exactly. And it's like, well, if you're forward, I'm against it. And so, and some of those were very effective in a lot of cases, they were the state agencies. They're your spark, tiny is beautiful and it's helping fish and it's green and you're not going to touch it doesn't really help fish.

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[00:30:50] For those of us who are not as up to date on plant knowledge. When we are referring to clones, that's the way a grass plant spreads in this [00:31:00] particular case. So, if you can imagine one Sprig of grass, one shoot. The that shoot from the root area will shoot out. Rhizomes rhizomes are very much like roots, but.

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[00:31:47] and so, and we, and, you know, we played those ridiculous games.

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[00:31:53] Jeff Nesbitt: painting, painting

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[00:32:00] Jeff Nesbitt: And it was, but actually thank God. They did try all that stuff. Cause now we know what really actually, yeah,

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[00:32:12] Even those out of the agencies assistant. They did. But, uh, it was an interesting battle. If

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[00:32:23] Kim Patten: Yeah. Right. Who cares if it's yeah. If you're, you know, if you're

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[00:32:29] Kim Patten: from a thousand to 10,000 acres in the meantime, that's like, I don't think that's as working guys.

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[00:32:48] Kim Patten: all that. And I think in, and then dealing with the coffee yes. Type of bureaucracy that just is not going to move.

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[00:33:30] And they said, no, w w we can't, you're not going to use it. Hey, airplanes. Nope. We're not gonna allow that. I know you're not going to go after it. You're not going to be allowed to use imazapyr. We're not gonna allow that. And instead said, yes, we are. And they said, okay. I mean, not in that, so many words, but that was, uh, and, uh, uh, having a champion like that did make a huge difference.

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[00:34:01] Jeff Nesbitt: and a different populous people do not really like the idea of. Doing really any kind of disruption of the ecosystem, even if they don't fully understand what's going on,

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[00:34:27] Jeff Nesbitt: Those are the most useful type of allies

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[00:34:53] You can come up with solutions. Um, I mean, I can talk about burrowing shrimp. I mean, we, uh, [00:35:00] developed a control and, and And they said, no w w no, that's not gonna work. So we've been looking and still are looking for alternatives. And, um, what

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[00:35:08] Kim Patten: in the car, bro? You know, it's used for, it has been used for 67 years since 19, um, 1950s.

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[00:35:37] And there's lots of research that shows that. Yeah, if you get rid of the Broin shrimp, you do have a net gain over a course of two or three years in the ecosystem health. And, um, just by the diversity, uh, well, you know, you're looking at diversity and abundance of, uh, species from the, you know, if you get the eelgrass coming back, then you get the fish and then you [00:36:00] get the crab.

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[00:36:08] Jeff Nesbitt: Okay. So when you see those nerds walking across the mud flats with PVC square, Toss him on the ground counting. Yep. That's what they're doing now.

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[00:36:17] Yeah, but it's, uh, it's, it's a really in the world of doing that stuff has changed. And when I started this, it was relatively easier to get permits, do that kind of stuff like data collection

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[00:36:30] Kim Patten: control control, or to go out and put out a plot, you know, and in the old days it was, um, you know, you fill out your paperwork and you get your permits to do this or that out there, and you would eventually get them.

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[00:36:51] Jeff Nesbitt: what do you think is the reason? Well, I,

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[00:37:05] So a a hundred milligram dose of caffeine, , , per meter squared is in the equivalent in a lab, does a pretty good job of causing tetany in burrowing shrimp.

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[00:37:17] Kim Patten: a cup of coffee. And so basically pouring a cup of it. Yeah. A week cup of coffee. Yeah. And I mean, what could be wrong with coffee?

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[00:37:52] Uh, I guess that makes sense. And it's it's so it's like, you can come up with solutions, but they might be [00:38:00] socially acceptable, but, but they may not be, , Acceptable from other components. I remember you having me

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[00:38:12] Um, do you happen to remember the time the tire on the marsh master exploded

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[00:38:18] Jeff Nesbitt: the marsh master, it looked like a giant ATV.

[: 00:38:21

[00:38:26] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a flat and there was, you couldn't get another tire for it. And so you had me go buy a case of that expanding foam insulation, right?

[: 00:38:35

[00:38:42] Kim Patten: back close to get it out of it. Out of

[: 00:38:44

[00:38:52] It'll just look like it was snow. Go down the bay. That

[: 00:38:56

[00:38:58] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, that's a fantastic job. [00:39:00] I loved it. I really, um, showed me what I wanted to do. Oh, that's good. Well, I was working at a grocery store and it's not really that much fun.

[: 00:39:10

[00:39:27] And here's what we need to do. And you're one of the, uh, the better ones for doing that. I don't know how long he worked there, but it was fun two years, I think. Yeah. I think your sister worked there alone.

[: 00:39:39

[00:39:40] Kim Patten: before me. Your brother was only a couple of years to six

[: 00:39:45

[00:39:47] Kim Patten: Uh, it wasn't enough ness, but he would try to hide her mom. She didn't want to work.

[: 00:39:53

[00:40:06] Kim Patten: well thank you. Thank you.

[: 00:40:07

[00:40:29] Jeff Nesbitt: tell people when like, they'd asked me about that on my resume or something, I'd be like, yeah, I would generally carry the heavy stuff.

[: 00:40:35

[00:40:43] Kim Patten: and go. Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I, uh, I still write literature recommendation for people that work for me. I don't

[: 00:40:50

[00:40:52] Thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah.

[: 00:40:55

[00:41:01] Kim Patten: Oh yeah. Well, I'm borrowing one from Michael Parker. I don't know if Michael Parker who's he's uh, he's probably, he's close to 90 and he's not gonna use it anymore. So I said mark and connect. Cause it just looks so cool.

[: 00:41:13

[00:41:36] And so you you're and you're trying to Dodge poles and all sorts of stuff there. And it's so tippy. You better hope it's glass and it's and if there's any wind or anything like that, and it's also, it's really hard and it's okay. You're coordinating. About 10 different moves at the same time And it's, you have to be perfectly balanced and okay.

[: 00:41:59

[00:42:31] And it's like, uh, so I actually haven't gotten it out this summer cause I've got to add some tendonitis in my elbow, so I haven't ruined, but it's hard. And I'm not to the grueling part cause. I'm not, I can't go long enough to get it where I can go. Okay. I can. All right. I did two miles now I have to go home.

[: 00:42:49

[00:42:52] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. So when I was doing that, it was also

[: 00:42:54

[00:43:09] I said, print me a rudder. That's bigger than this rudder so I can stay straighter. So I haven't put it on yet, but, but he's got, so we got a rudder engineered so that I can at least stay straighter, but it's, it's a challenge. I, Mike was telling me, oh, I used to go out there and raised the barges.

[: 00:43:28

[00:43:31] Jeff Nesbitt: pretty dangerous.

[: 00:43:32

[00:43:50] I don't know, but

[: 00:43:52

[00:43:56] Kim Patten: Oh, I might do that. Yeah.

[: 00:43:58

[00:44:14] But, and then when you do get on the water,

[: 00:44:17

[00:44:22] Jeff Nesbitt: muscles, like posterior chain.

[: 00:44:24

[00:44:30] Jeff Nesbitt: it's yeah, it really does work stuff. You're not used to working and it's all pivoting around different center points then than you're used to using,

[: 00:44:37

[00:44:43] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. Do you ever get on an ERG, like the rowing machine?

[: 00:44:46

[00:44:49] And I've tried that. Yeah. It's pretty good workout.

[: 00:44:52

[00:44:54] Kim Patten: I mean, it's like, oh, this is so easy. You could just go, come on. It's [00:45:00] it's a, cause it's just, the balance is so hard. Cause you have to really, it's so much focus, you know, if you, you it's just absolute concentration and because you have two panels have to be in just exact place and it's just, just you feathering the blade.

[: 00:45:17

[00:45:24] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. That's good for your brain to keep you young,

[: 00:45:28

[00:45:29] Jeff Nesbitt: challenging yourself like that is it's great for your creativity to make you

[: 00:45:33

[00:45:35] Okay. Well, I'll take your word for it. That's why you're so smart. It's

[: 00:45:39

[00:45:41] Kim Patten: easier just running.

[: 00:45:43

[00:45:48] Kim Patten: Uh, I've taken up Ronnie and I try to run trail running and, uh, I it's, it's enjoyable.

[: 00:45:56

[00:46:24] It's soft yet. And it's just, yeah, it's just lovely for running in the winter and it's.

[: 00:46:28

[00:46:33] Kim Patten: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's the county's job they're working on it. They should,

[: 00:46:37

[00:46:40] Kim Patten: of course, yeah.

[: 00:46:41

[00:46:52] Jeff Nesbitt: like one that's, uh, there's gotta be some kind of development you could do with it. It's so oily. Like why can't you grind it up and make Firestarter [00:47:00] pellets out of it?

[: 00:47:01

[00:47:01] Kim Patten: first one of my first jobs. So I'm one of my first job was castrating sheep, but my second job was clearing Gores in New Zealand. I had these huge piles of gorse and that we'd burn and I had this giant pile. Put together and, and we lit it and I mean, it was flames two, three foot high, and the fire department came and it was a big deal and we had to get, oh, we've got all sorts of fines for it and everything like that.

[: 00:47:31

[00:47:34] Jeff Nesbitt: head to toe that I've watched the video on YouTube. Uh, I think that was New Zealand, gray head. And I don't know if that sounds familiar, but yeah, the whole thing burned. It was all covered in gorse and it just, it was a helicopter view of it and it just hundreds and hundreds of acres just well,

[: 00:47:49

[00:47:51] Isn't just solid gorse, too. 12 people

[: 00:47:54

[00:48:04] Kim Patten: tires. No kidding. Wow. Yeah. Wow. I think weeds are invasive weeds.

[: 00:48:09

[00:48:13] Jeff Nesbitt: purely biological point of view, It's the most amazing plants. They're at least impressive.

[: 00:48:18

[00:48:21] Jeff Nesbitt: I don't know how knotweed is going to be addressed. Like control is the only option because it's not feasible to think you could eradicate all of them.

[: 00:48:33

[00:48:43] But it's, it's multiple years stuff. Yeah.

[: 00:48:45

[00:48:48] Kim Patten: at least in the same year. And I, you know, Fritzy, grad staff who used to work at the cranberry station and bio-control was for Tyna she, you know, she's got it. Um, stem [00:49:00] bore that they're going to release or have released or have their, their in.

[: 00:49:04

[00:49:09] Jeff Nesbitt: recently

[: 00:49:10

[00:49:18] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah.

[: 00:49:19

[00:49:25] Jeff Nesbitt: in the same way that not we does.

[: 00:49:27

[00:49:28] I found him on my property, so it was really, that's a lot.

[: 00:49:31

[00:49:33] Kim Patten: Oh, that was that. Was you near boat? Oh yeah. I saw somebody just kind of going and starting to find Spartina. Not on your property, but you find some, I found three notes.

[: 00:49:42

[00:49:46] Oh, wow. Three

[: 00:49:47

[00:49:56] Jeff Nesbitt: ones I'm seeing now are like, it'll be like 1, 2, 3 in a

[: 00:49:59

[00:50:05] Jeff Nesbitt: just, they just come every once in a while.

[: 00:50:07

[00:50:14] Kim Patten: I love going in there. That's that? That's the best part of, I was in the best part of my job is go out and do stuff.

[: 00:50:19

[00:50:22] Jeff Nesbitt: It's such a different world in the bay. Like you, you get out there and you sometimes if you're not out there a lot, you forget like the plants are different. The smells are different. The world just feels different. Yeah. It's special.

[: 00:50:33

[00:50:34] Kim Patten: Yeah. And most people don't see that and they don't experience it and they just it's. It's the same with the woods. Yeah. Yeah. It's

[: 00:50:41

[00:50:53] I think that's why it stuck with me, but that's that's

[: 00:50:56

[00:51:03] Jeff Nesbitt: fun being in it, like feeling you're breathing the air and everything. You feel like a better version of yourself in the woods?

[: 00:51:10

[00:51:13] Kim Patten: Uh, I have a few favorite spots. Uh, goat rocks is one of them. And then Mount Rainier. There's there's just so many.

[: 00:51:21

[00:51:23] up?

[: 00:51:24

[00:51:35] Well, they came out early, usually you'd be in peak wild flower, little bit, you know, pretty S you know, a week ago or two, but now everything kind of went, , wait early with that heat. Oh yeah. But it's still amazing.

[: 00:51:46

[00:51:48] Kim Patten: Uh, depends on where you were. There's some spots that were.

[: 00:51:53

[00:51:56] Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, I didn't ease. Oh, [00:52:00] oh, oh

[: 00:52:01

[00:52:15] Jeff Nesbitt: friendly native bees, the bees that live around here are loners.

[: 00:52:19

[00:52:22] Kim Patten: Some species are ground nesters, like the melanpygus, and the mixtus some of them, the melanopygus will do sort of aerial and ground pending on what they find.

[: 00:52:33

[00:52:42] Um, and there was all these holes in the ground, like probably 500

[: 00:52:48

[00:52:49] Jeff Nesbitt: during yesterday on really hot days, bees were flying out of, and we would like, we were amazed cause we could stand on these holes and everything. And the bees were all around us, but none of them were staying in us. , [00:53:00] I, it was bizarre.

[: 00:53:01

[00:53:02] Kim Patten: Yeah. Those are the little, uh, solitary nesters that, uh, and uh, oh, I wish I would've known about that. Um, cause I spent a lot of time studying pollination ecology, and on top of it actually, oh, pay paradise, put in a parking lot. Um, it's, let's see. Yeah,

[: 00:53:21

[00:53:23] Kim Patten: That's it's, it's a fascinating, Evelyn lived for 30 years, but there's a lot of changes in 30 years. It's, it's sort of a lot of houses as like, oh, I used to go mushroom me there. Oh, not anymore. I used to go mushroom in there and not anymore. Like, it's very few spots that are left that are sort of,

[: 00:53:44

[00:53:46] Kim Patten: You know, I, I, uh, when they're flushed, still chanterelles are hard to beat. I just love the chanterelles, but the bleak, you know, the big bleeds, this are just like so magnificent. They [00:54:00] really are. And they're just so such a gift and then just so glorious and statuesque, and they're just sort of, you know, they're just this gift.

[: 00:54:08

[00:54:30] Jeff Nesbitt: a weird feeling.

[: 00:54:31

[00:54:41] Kim Patten: But I think there are, all of them are nice.

[: 00:54:46

[00:54:51] Kim Patten: Perfect. One part of the, the king bleed is just, oh, perfect timing.

[: 00:54:55

[00:54:59] Jeff Nesbitt: It really is really [00:55:00] short. It almost feels like you would see them actively growing cause they come up so fast one day, nothing there. The next. Six inches of height, six

[: 00:55:09

[00:55:09] Kim Patten: of cap. Yeah. And the next day they're worried and

[: 00:55:13

[00:55:14] Yeah. Do you cook them?

[: 00:55:17

[00:55:24] Jeff Nesbitt: That's the thing I had to start selling mushrooms. I can't eat that many. And I was just like picking them.

[: 00:55:30

[00:55:38] Oh, there's one, there's one there and it's, it's just sort of this, I mean rush because it's not predictable and a great reinforcement. Exactly. Right. And so you get that, uh, non-constant dopamine, you know, it's not like once you find them, they're everywhere now. It's just like gambling. It is addicting.

[: 00:55:59

[00:56:00] Jeff Nesbitt: and it has to be perfect it has to be within the range if you're finding too many, you burn out and if you don't have enough. Yeah.

[: 00:56:08

[00:56:22] Jeff Nesbitt: Like Rabbit road.

[: 00:56:23

[00:56:24] Oh my gosh. That's a hard one.

[: 00:56:25

[00:56:35] Ha ha

[: 00:56:35

[00:56:36] Jeff Nesbitt: I didn't find a SINGLE mushroom. I was cussing you the whole time.

[: 00:56:40

[00:56:41] Jeff Nesbitt: I really thought I was going to find them.

[: 00:56:43

[00:56:45] Kim Patten: Several people have said that.

[: 00:56:46

[00:56:51] Kim Patten:

[: 00:56:51

[00:57:05] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, I forgotten

[: 00:57:06

[00:57:17] Jeff Nesbitt: from logging or

[: 00:57:18

[00:57:24] Oh, it was a whole logging room. Cause that's all second or third growth. Yeah. And then I think up north, uh, finding old roads.

[: 00:57:31

[00:57:43] I think that there must have been a town out there at some point. It is a road and lots of little areas that look like they used to be like a

[: 00:57:51

[00:58:01] Jeff Nesbitt: I like

[: 00:58:01

[00:58:02] I think that's sale in my mind. Uh it's the only way to preserve things is just to have it in, uh, in sort of preserve private land holding. Yeah. Because otherwise. Knows.

[: 00:58:17

[00:58:25] Oh my gosh.

[: 00:58:26

[00:58:50] They had, you can see that there were these little camps and they just left stuff when they'd done hunting. And it was like, oh, please, you know, it was like old lawn chairs and this [00:59:00] and that. And you know, well, you know, it just like, uh,

[: 00:59:04

[00:59:10] Kim Patten: of him.

[: 00:59:10

[00:59:12] Jeff Nesbitt: carry back. Yeah. I find old TVs, refrigerator,

[: 00:59:16

[00:59:20] Jeff Nesbitt: hope, I hope Columbia land trust gets a hold of that.

[: 00:59:23

[00:59:26] Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, cool. Yeah. Why don't they get all that junk out of there because they can't

[: 00:59:30

[00:59:32] Jeff Nesbitt: they're all trailers back there. Yeah. Spooky. I, that makes you think there's a tweaker around every corner.

[: 00:59:39

[00:59:41] Jeff Nesbitt: you ever have any issue with people invading your private property out there in ocean park?

[: 00:59:45

[01:00:07] I wouldn't, I mean, it was like, but if that, if it works, but now I'm not going to do that.

[: 01:00:12

[01:00:14] Kim Patten: They should be. Yeah.

[: 01:00:15

[01:00:19] Jeff Nesbitt: people siphon my gas really? That sucks. Oh my gosh. But, um, that's it not nothing else,

[: 01:00:27

[01:00:34] Jeff Nesbitt: I don't know. Neighborhood watch might be good. You could do it through Facebook. Nice. Um,

[: 01:00:39

[01:00:41] Jeff Nesbitt: Well, is everyone over 80? Your neighborhood close?

[: 01:00:44

[01:00:45] Jeff Nesbitt: over 70, you don't really have much of a neighborhood really? It's pretty spread out.

[: 01:00:49

[01:00:54] Jeff Nesbitt: No, she looks pretty tight. I can see people from every direction. I look out my windows. [01:01:00] Okay. Um,

[: 01:01:00

[01:01:03] affect change with your podcast? How are, how are you going to do that? What's your plan? You must have some sort of goal in mind.

[: 01:01:10

[01:01:20] Kim Patten: how do I, how do I support your podcast?

[: 01:01:22

[01:01:27] Jeff Nesbitt: advertise yourself. Jeff, I have been struggling with that issue. So this podcast costs not a lot of money, and I can afford that. And it's fun. And it's been really good for my mental health. It's just been a really great outlet for me.

[: 01:01:39

[01:02:00] but for now, I'm just trying not to put too much pressure on myself to make it a certain thing. You should

[: 01:02:05

[01:02:10] Jeff Nesbitt: I know I been meaning to do it for a long time, but it just seems so like, Ooh, needy, give me, I, I just wanted it to, I don't want it to seem like a, to seem sleazy.

[: 01:02:20

[01:02:35] Kim Patten: before I think you have enough followers that they should all put in 10 bucks a month to

[: 01:02:41

[01:02:42] Kim Patten: all right. And we mailed that to

[: 01:02:44

[01:02:49] Kim Patten: Okay. Enough promotion.

[: 01:02:51

[01:03:04] Kim Patten: and my daughters wanted to stop and start a podcast.

[: 01:03:06

[01:03:15] Jeff Nesbitt: blah. I mean, right now, it's still in the early stages. New medium. It's a new form of communication. Yeah. And it's something that a lot more people will do because it's just like, you're creating a time capsule of your thoughts.

[: 01:03:26

[01:03:38] Kim Patten: Well, memory is, is, uh, yeah, interesting.

[: 01:03:41

[01:03:54] Kim Patten: don't communicate with, which is, and it's such a false sense of communication.

[: 01:03:58

[01:04:13] Yeah. I mean, where are they basically?

[: 01:04:15

[01:04:24] that

[: 01:04:24

[01:04:27] Kim Patten: Yeah. Yeah. Coolest study ever. And so, uh,

[: 01:04:32

[01:04:34] Kim Patten: that as well.

[: 01:04:34

[01:04:55] Jeff Nesbitt: be in very

[: 01:04:57

[01:04:58] Yeah. I mean, it's, I I'm, [01:05:00] so I'm almost, I'm envious at your skillset to sort of weave that through your podcast and that's, that's, that's, uh, that's precious.

[: 01:05:09

[01:05:18] Kim Patten: you know, I I'd hoped I could become a professional pickleball player when I retired.

[: 01:05:22

[01:05:54] They spin it down, they get the section with the platelet rich [01:06:00] and then they inject it into your elbow and the doctor, this was done, uh, there's several places that do it, but this within a rebound and they say, well, this is going to be pirate, classically painful. And it is, but it's only 10 minutes

[: 01:06:17

[01:06:18] Kim Patten: like lighting, like, like it's going to hurt like hell volcano has like, this is going to hurt like hell yeah.

[: 01:06:24

[01:06:25] Jeff Nesbitt: I kind of an injection did

[: 01:06:26

[01:06:46] And it takes a long time. It's not like a cortisone injection where you feel better right afterwards. This is like, uh, that plus a lot of physical therapy and rest and not using it, you know, it starts the healing process and rebuilding the collagen and so forth. Okay.

[: 01:06:59

[01:07:05] You're

[: 01:07:06

[01:07:15] Jeff Nesbitt: and they do the same thing with like the exosomes and stem cells, right?

[: 01:07:19

[01:07:20] I mean, th this is, and he was saying, well, we are, you can use the fat out of your back is really very effective. And it wasn't used for these love handles. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And because they're really mitochondria, rich and so forth and they spin them down. I don't know. He says that, but that's a little more expensive and it's, they use it for different parts of your body.

[: 01:07:40

[01:07:45] Jeff Nesbitt: Okay. So speaking of mitochondria, do you think mitochondria are tiny aliens or anything like that? Because I heard it was theory. So mitochondria, for those of you don't know where the energy producing organelle within each cell of your body.[01:08:00]

[: 01:08:00

[01:08:22] And it really works well. It's a great system. W what do you think about any of that weird science stuff? Um,

[: 01:08:30

[01:08:51] Jeff Nesbitt: No, I'm glad you got that. I was like, mine was the special, I got that. What was that? The sorry, the clots make it hard to think that Johnson [01:09:00] and Johnson.

[: 01:09:01

[01:09:12] Yeah, I think it's fascinating. The home people's reaction to this stuff, it's just beer. It's just, it's just the human psyche is so such an odd, fragile, fragile, and, and people's, I guess. Risk risk perception is it's a fascinating study.

[: 01:09:34

[01:09:39] had

[: 01:09:39

[01:09:41] Kim Patten: but even, but even a human is not that good at risk perception.

[: 01:09:44

[01:09:52] Jeff Nesbitt: If we did, we would be collapsed in a heap because it's so high. The probability of us existing period is just off the [01:10:00] charts. It's really bizarre that we're here

[: 01:10:02

[01:10:06] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. But that's good.

[: 01:10:07

[01:10:14] Kim Patten: Well, but we are the Richard Fineman of great physicists. You know, we are the easiest people to be full. W it's easy to follow. Right. I mean I'm, I'm, I, I don't trust myself cause I'm, I'm very skeptical , cause I can easily fool myself in, in sort of this, uh, confirmation bias and all sorts of stuff.

[: 01:10:33

[01:10:50] Kim Patten: Yeah, no, one of my favorite podcasts is where you're not so smart and he just goes through all of these sort of, um, fallacies of, of, [01:11:00] of, uh, thinking and that we're so subject to that.

[: 01:11:03

[01:11:36] That is

[: 01:11:36

[01:11:46] Kim Patten: But if you're dealing with stuff that you're emotionally attached to, let's say ecology of the bay or whatever, your home, your home, it's, it's, it's a little more tricky and it's sort of, you [01:12:00] really want stuff to be true.

[: 01:12:01

[01:12:10] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah, because if it doesn't, the consequences could be

[: 01:12:12

[01:12:23] Jeff Nesbitt: That loops back around to what we were talking about with the climate change problem.

[: 01:12:27

[01:12:44] correctly.

[: 01:12:44

[01:12:52] And I think they're using a machine learning where you can take an individual event of weather and link it back to [01:13:00] climate change. And now we've got the models to make that a lot more effective, which is that's pretty cool. Cause that's pretty.

[: 01:13:06

[01:13:15] Kim Patten: Yeah. Well, and you guys are so lucky cause you grew up with computers and you know, we were still doing it with a slide rule or when I was going to college. And so you were still doing your, and your advanced statistics with a slide ruler and that's all you were allowed to take into exams.

[: 01:13:28

[01:13:39] Jeff Nesbitt: for statistics or what did you use before you retired?

[: 01:13:41

[01:13:55] And then, uh, it became a lot more friendly, , on PCs, but then I [01:14:00] did SPSS, but, uh, but there are a lot of, uh, there's so many systems out there. I did a lot of SIG Sigma plot in Excel and other stuff, but it's, there's so many options and now it's, you can use R and R is a free, uh, free where, , and basically sort of this developed by just a bunch of statisticians, but it's all sort of, um, Relatively easy programming to do, uh, just using sort of stuff online is free, but it's one of these things and it's like a foreign language, unless you were kind of learned it from, it's not, it's not something for someone who's was

[: 01:14:42

[01:14:43] Kim Patten: statistician really complicated stuff.

[: 01:14:46

[01:15:02] See that there's a change in population of a particular species over time as a function of, uh, what happens in the control versus the treatment and, you know, it's

[: 01:15:11

[01:15:15] Kim Patten: yeah. It's like, I don't even know what half of the words that we used me. I was like, okay.

[: 01:15:23

[01:15:44] It would help people understand the news and the PR you know, just probabilities and all that kind of stuff. We don't teach kids. Don't. I mean, we have to say that geometry and calculus are waste, but we should probably be, we should probably be learning statistics first because it's [01:16:00] probably the most important thing anyone could do.

[: 01:16:01

[01:16:09] Kim Patten: yeah. Well, and, and, uh, yeah, I go back to COVID and it's, it's a probabilistic and just the quantum, you know, the change in quantum energy with is just the shift.

[: 01:16:20

[01:16:25] Jeff Nesbitt: I, I like to flounder in it. See if I can at least understand any of it. I read a couple books on quantum theory and, um, string theory. Oh yeah. String theory. Yeah. Yeah. Just cause they're pretty intimidating. It's like, um, talk a lot about like quantum gravity and that I couldn't get.

[: 01:16:43

[01:16:57] Kim Patten: Well, what's the saying about quantum, , [01:17:00] Mechanics. If, if someone's thinks they understand that they don't understand it, that's basically, I don't believe you

[: 01:17:06

[01:17:11] It took me literally years to even understand what are they even talking about? I just couldn't even conceptualize what they were trying to describe. Okay.

[: 01:17:18

[01:17:24] Jeff Nesbitt: through the multi-verse that decided to follow that all the way through.

[: 01:17:28

[01:17:32] Kim Patten: The other guy.

[: 01:17:33

[01:17:36] Kim Patten: No. Cause he was chasing Shrodinger's cat.

[: 01:17:38

[01:17:39] Schrodinger's Cat.. In quantum mechanics, Schrodinger's cat is a thought experiment that illustrates a paradox of quantum superposition.

[: 01:17:48

[01:18:04] So in quantum mechanics, there's this idea of the wave function, which means When it is not being observed by consciousness an electron traveling around a nucleus. is in the form of a wave. And once an observer takes. Uh, look at it. It becomes one point on that wave.

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[01:18:22]

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[01:18:59] [01:19:00] And that sounds like. Magic or just weirdness, but you kind of have to just suspend disbelief to be able to understand this at all. So bear with me.

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[01:19:23] Yeah, that doesn't sound very. Straight forward. Does it? This thought experiment was devised by physicist Erwin Schrodinger in 1935. During a discussion with Albert Einstein. To illustrate what Schrodinger saw as the problems of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Particularly in situations involving the measurement problem.

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[01:19:56] And how can something ever be measured if it's not being observed? [01:20:00] That's just not possible. This is called the observer effect. And it also.

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[01:20:16] And as strange as that sounds, it applies to

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[01:20:40] So the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, The cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when one looks in the box, one sees that the cat is either alive or dead, not both alive and dead. This poses, the question of when exactly quantum [01:21:00] superposition ends and reality resolves into one possibility or the other.

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[01:21:20] and that reality didn't crystallize until the observer was there to see it. So in a way. If you open that box and see your cat is in there dead, you killed that cat with your observation does that make sense?

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[01:21:50] This sounds crazy, right? Like obviously a cat cannot be alive and dead at the same time, but again, this is theoretical quantum mechanics and not reality [01:22:00] per se. So the idea is just as it's to point out. Some of the illogic parts. Of quantum theory that we have to grapple with,

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[01:22:30] Slash alive cat in a box with radioactive plutonium. And it got your counter. And that's a hard pill to swallow. Anyway, back to the show.

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[01:22:40] Jeff Nesbitt:

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[01:22:48] Kim Patten: Um, yeah. You're you're you have a, sort of a diverse interest outside your.

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[01:23:12] Jeff Nesbitt: fantastic. I like that topic. Happiness is really a good thing.

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[01:23:38] Memory. I got a snapshot this, so I don't forget the way this feels. Cause I I'll miss it. I already miss it in the future. in the multi-verse well,

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[01:23:54] Jeff Nesbitt: you have to appreciate for the effect that they'll have in your life.

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[01:24:03] Kim Patten: uncomfortable, but that's just accepted and you par for the course and you grow from it. And uh, so that you have a high set point or low set point for happiness, you think you're usually pretty up on the, I

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[01:24:24] Okay. Because

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[01:24:28] Jeff Nesbitt: Um, depression, I actually just kind of came out of a three week depression I feel fine again now. And so it's weird to even think about it, cause it, it, I'm not in that place, but it's just like the floor just drops out all of a sudden, I don't see any meaning in anything I'm doing.

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[01:25:01] Like my sleep nutrition, staying hydrated, connecting with people who love me and then took a couple of days and I felt better. And now I'm fine again. But those things are very important for me. if I let my impulses just run away with me and I spend 12 hours a day working, uh, just cause I really want to get something done and I don't eat or.

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[01:25:39] Kim Patten: I remember we used to be kind of an anxious teenager.

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[01:25:49] Jeff Nesbitt: Yeah. He's pretty anxious too. Yeah. You ever deal with anything like that?

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[01:26:06] It's this impermanence non-attachment and I. But then I haven't necessarily dealt with things that would blow people apart, you know, or, you know, death of a family member or something. Like, I mean, there are things you can get depressed. And I, I cry at the drop of a hat, but it, I think that those are sort of impermanence and, and, uh, but I, I, I just don't, I have a hard time relating or a sort of, uh, to people that are sort of this S waves of depression and, and these, uh, it's, it's like, I don't, because that's not who I am.

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[01:26:48] Jeff Nesbitt: My wife is that way she's very steady and it's, it's such a great compliment. So not like

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[01:27:00] Jeff Nesbitt: A lot of artists are very.

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[01:27:04] She's always up in, in the winter. It's like that light thing. And it's seasonal.

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[01:27:14] Kim Patten: but

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[01:27:22] Kim Patten: I can't remember the receptor in your eyes called, but uh, that early exposure to that every day.

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[01:27:29] Jeff Nesbitt: I, I was just thinking about that the other day for all the babies that didn't go outside in 2020. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like it couldn't be good.

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[01:27:39] Jeff Nesbitt: lots. Yeah. There's a, there's definitely a limit, but I get as much sun as possible. I'm just naturally. So fair-skinned that if I don't, I'm just like a ghost.

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[01:27:54] Kim Patten: of tan, tan. I just want, I just needed some, I caught myself, I [01:28:00] feel white and St. Cox oxide, but oh yeah, you use the good stuff. I had so many skin cancers that it's, you don't, you don't mess around man. From the, every form I've had them, I'm missing my ear, missing most of my nose at some of my neck growing on my nose.

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[01:28:33] And I have saved two people's lives that way. Really? Yeah. They said, they've come back and said, that was melanoma. The doctor said, if you would have waited another month, I would have been dead. And so they took out most of their arm or their head or whatever. And it was like, so I do it as a habit, just looking at people's.

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[01:28:57] Jeff Nesbitt: face. Like moly guy. Really? [01:29:00]

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[01:29:02] Jeff Nesbitt: been to Germany. Oh my gosh. And I like, I have adult acne. I shouldn't have a dermatology.

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[01:29:26] Kim Patten: So you were pimple faced kid so bad. Oh, but you were, but you were the, the, the stud muffin in high school.

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[01:29:36] Kim Patten: you were the football captain. I

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[01:29:46] Yeah. He was better than me. He's more athletic.

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[01:29:51] Jeff Nesbitt: bigger and bigger and tougher, but I'm also, he's coordinated, really coordinated. Like he could throw a football, like crazy and I just could

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[01:30:01] Jeff Nesbitt: He's he's honestly in another world. Another university probably. Yeah. Well,

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[01:30:09] Jeff Nesbitt: You too. He's doing great. It's

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[01:30:13] Jeff Nesbitt: They're having trouble. Oh really?

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[01:30:19] Jeff Nesbitt: for her. Third one is the happiest child I've ever met in my life.

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[01:30:28] Kim Patten: I've never met a Nesbitt that wasn't

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[01:30:33] Jeff Nesbitt: Um, well, let's see, we have about 10 minutes left. Is there anything you wanted to hit before, before we forget?

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[01:30:46] Jeff Nesbitt: Oh, that's exactly where I was going to go.

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[01:31:12] What about

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[01:31:18] Jeff Nesbitt: I think about that a lot. Uh, we just didn't know. And we were actually told by Monsanto that it was much safer than I think it was known to be .

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[01:31:41] And I'm pretty careful about that. I just, no. Okay. You don't have

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[01:31:47] Jeff Nesbitt: one. Okay. Uh, but it exploded, so I don't use it.

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[01:32:01] Yeah. And I figured It out, but yeah, no, I mean,

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[01:32:09] And it's it's, uh, that was, I am

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[01:32:26] Kim Patten: day, so you can do it calmly now and you stick in your earbuds and you just spray I'm much,

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[01:32:35] The equipment's better. Yeah. I've trained for a lot

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[01:32:40] Jeff Nesbitt: um, but um, I heard they have discontinued home

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[01:32:54] Jeff Nesbitt: how's that the active ingredient glyphosate or just Roundup?

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[01:33:25] I don't know that. And I, I'm not, this is, we'll see what happens in that regard. You could probably still buy it at Dennis' company, uh, for the probably foreseeable future. I don't know that. And you know, this whole thing about the eco toxicology and, you know, it's a complicated stuff and you don't really, you know, you're looking at acute versus chronic versus the effect, the gut biome, which we don't even study versus all these things.

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[01:34:07] Jeff Nesbitt: Have you always been big into fermented foods?

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[01:34:16] I wish I was a little more skillful. I don't do the alcohol ones as much, you know? I mean, the Cambodia is probably as alcoholic as I can get, but the, uh, the sauerkrauts and, uh, made some, I was going to bring you some kimchi, but I forgot. That's my

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[01:34:38] I

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[01:35:04] Jeff Nesbitt: more biodiversity and individual difference between two people like yeah.

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[01:35:10] Kim Patten: I mean, but they're showing that. Yeah, it's it, you can certainly change it, but there it has its own, you know, um, steady state. And so it may go up or down and you come back to a steady state with your own individual Flores and all that kind of stuff. So it's balanced and it's fascinating stuff.

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[01:35:32] Kim Patten: Oh yeah. Yeah. We were, when my wife was really sick, that was one of the options of, you know, well, let's consider a fecal transplant. Yeah. I've um, It's, it's not, it's hard to be, you know, for, for certain diseases. Yeah. You C diff just for people who have debt problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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[01:36:19] Me when it first

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[01:36:23] Kim Patten: fascinating. It's amazing. I think it's amazing. And just because you, like, you learn so much about yourself and, you know, I, I kind of knew my work. We came from all that kind of stuff, but it's like some of your. Oh, I've got, um, and then I did it because I wanted to know if I should retire early.

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[01:37:03] If you're going to have some of these things, why work until you can no longer function, let's just retire, enjoy your life. So I wanted to know that. So I did it about 15 years ago or 10 years ago or whatever it was, what a great company

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[01:37:18] Kim Patten: improved that program. I know, I know I do get updates, but I, since I was so early that there's still a lot of the.

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[01:37:43] Jeff Nesbitt: retired that's true. Answer these questions.

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[01:37:48] I don't know what it was, but it was there. It's fascinating.

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[01:37:56] Kim Patten: there it is, you know, they're selling you that, the selling that [01:38:00] information to chemical companies and all that kind of stuff, and you know, somebody's getting, making money off of you.

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[01:38:07] Jeff Nesbitt: that's okay. I do think it's okay because it's progressing our species in our knowledge of what we know and what we can. Yeah.

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[01:38:17] Jeff Nesbitt: other way to get to X-Men. I mean, we're not going to get super powers without that,

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[01:38:23] Sure.

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[01:38:29] you know,

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[01:38:40] Jeff Nesbitt: we were gonna have to start a whole nother podcast for that. I love that conversation topic. There's so much to that. Yeah. But I guess you gave me no unravel ready

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[01:38:50] Jeff Nesbitt: you me out.

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[01:38:56] Kim Patten: Oh gosh. I threw out the hook. You didn't take a Jeff

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[01:39:04] Kim Patten: you so much for coming. It's an it's an honor. Uh I've it's been a pleasure and I've enjoyed the you and your family tremendously. And,

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[01:39:16] Kim Patten: all that.

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[01:39:22] Jeff Nesbitt: All right. Any closing words?

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[01:39:29] Jeff Nesbitt: All right, guys. Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you next time.