Good Grief! Talking Calculus and Dead Folks with Liz Hylton

028 - Liz Hylton

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[00:00:26] Please just do it. It's really helpful. And this is a grassroots effort, meaning we don't have a big industrial powerhouse machine. That's going to market the hell out of this thing. It's just going to be us. So if you like it, pass it on at the time of recording, it is Thursday, May 20th, and it's been a crazy week.

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[00:01:08] The whales got together and they said, Hey, let's, let's do the old pump and dump a whale is a person or entity with more than a thousand Bitcoin in their wallet, I think. But so Ilan and his rich buddies. They got Bitcoin hype, just revved up to a fever and they brought the price all the way up to almost $70,000.

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[00:01:52] You couldn't get on Robin hood. You couldn't get on the cash app, everything froze. And you were locked out of Bitcoin transactions. Why [00:02:00] did that happen? It could have been because of congestion on the networks could have been the blockchain's just going too slow, who knows, but seems kind of fishy to me.

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[00:02:29] You should always consult a financial advisor before making decisions like that. Definitely just don't do it off of listening to some guy on a podcast who doesn't know what he's talking about. Anyway, there's a huge, huge, massive out flow. And then re-entry of cash coming into the crypto market surrounding this bottom, where the price hit 30 K, which is a major reduction.

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[00:03:13] To the best of my knowledge of what's going on, because yeah, it is something that's interesting and it's something that is a new technology. And even though it is risky and it's going to be the future. So I kind of feel obligated to share it as I'm learning it, even though I'm still not an expert on it.

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[00:03:44] So I'm just trying to help you guys be prepared for the future in the same way that I'm trying to prepare myself. And it's a learning process and it can be really fun, but there's also some risk involved. And a lot of people learn that the hard way this week it's been a crazy week. I'm pretty [00:04:00] excited about today's episode because it's with a person who I really admire.

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[00:04:23] The local mortuary and funeral home. And we get to hear just exactly how somebody falls into such a crazy line of work. Liz has also taught at many different school districts at the high school and college level, and she's still teaching. Now. I've known Liz a long time. We've gotten to know each other through some adversity, and she's just a really delightful woman.

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[00:05:08]I grew up with a guy named Luke Jensen. Luke was a fishermen. He was an athlete, a runner. A really smart kid. He used to go to science camp. He was Jeff Hilton's best friend growing up and they were pretty much inseparable. And me and him became really good friends later on. We went to the same college, our freshman year down at Humboldt state.

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[00:05:33] 10 years ago, Luke was commercial fishing and his boat went down and he lost his life. It was a really big deal for me and a really big deal for a lot of the people I'm surrounded by. And. Yeah, it sucked. I miss Luke a lot. I think about him often.

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[00:06:21] We don't really talk about it all that much. But just sometimes when I'm listening to a podcast and they start referencing. Insight information. I, and I just like, if you just say one thing about who this is, it will clear it up and it'll be, I'll be able to enjoy this, but. Eh, I didn't want that to happen. So I wanted you guys to be able to be in on it. So that's who we're talking about.

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[00:07:01] Despite those kind of heavier topics, we really had a very lighthearted podcast. It was, it was great. Liz has an ability to talk about that heavier stuff with a bit of lightness that somehow manages to make it. More palatable. I'm not good at that stuff. I'm really bad at it, actually. And so having her on here was, was therapeutic for me.

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[00:07:46] I think you guys will enjoy that part, especially because it's right on brand with the ramble . Anyway, I will get at it. I think you guys are really going to enjoy it. And I had a great time recording this one. She gave me goosebumps multiple times while I was listening to her talk just because she hit [00:08:00] on something that was just pure truth. And I just really related.

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[00:08:13] Or if you're one of those math students who likes to ask the question. When the fuck am I ever going to use this? This is the episode for you.

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[00:08:44] Don't forget to subscribe, blah, blah, blah, all that , you know, the drill. So without further ado, our guest today. Ran Pental is chapel by the sea, the local mortuary for 31 years. They started the year I was born. She taught at ocean beach [00:09:00] school district, Napa school district, central Oregon community college, Clatsop community college, and probably some other places that I'm forgetting. She was educated at a myriad of places, including Mount hood, community college, Portland state, university, Portland, Bible college, and the university of Phoenix.

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[00:09:31]So please give it up for the lovely and talented liz hilton

Music (Still Fly, Revel Day)

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[00:00:03]Liz Hylton: [00:00:03] Is this the setup? This is the setup. Let me grab up. Oh yeah. There's a bottle of water there for you. If you started to get parked here,

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[00:00:22] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:00:22] That's okay.

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[00:00:30] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:00:30] I don't know if I ever did. My, uh, my hair has always been a lost cause anyway.

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[00:00:37]Jeff Nesbitt: [00:00:37] Um, yeah, we're just going to jump right in. I don't have a whole, uh, Outline or anything like that. I have just basic bullet points basically I was just, we're just going to talk.

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[00:00:59] Liz Hylton: [00:00:59] it [00:01:00] lots of time. It's nice to be having that without a crisis.

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[00:01:07] It is nice. We generally end up talking when something bad has happened. That seems like it, or when something's in bad is in the process of happening. Um, but yeah, or after it's happened or after it's happened. And for the most part, you handle those things exceedingly well, like times when I have been kind of feeling very panicked about, well, I mean, we'll just come right out with it.

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[00:01:42] I just try to go and you're already there, um, almost every time and yeah, it's, it's comforting to know that you are looking out for him more than me even. And cause he, I mean, he's a grownup. He, he knows how to take care of himself, but. Yeah. Um, I think he [00:02:00] really depends on you in particular, especially for the emotional support.

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[00:02:16] Liz Hylton: [00:02:16] Well, it's not what I signed up for. Yeah. But I also think that we get the kids we get because they need us or we have something we can provide them or give them that maybe somebody else couldn't in quite the same way.

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[00:02:44] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:02:44] And what businesses that

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[00:02:53]Jeff Nesbitt: [00:02:53] Well, both really, got to deal with a lot of emotions on both fronts in that both of those businesses.

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[00:03:14] I learned from the funeral home.

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[00:03:21] Liz Hylton: [00:03:21] Well, like it's important for teachers to listen, not just to go on and on about their subject and that be the whole focus you have to, you have to listen to find out where they're coming from and what you need to provide them , for the next step.

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[00:04:01] That's going through their head, especially when it comes to mathematics. When I went into funeral service, I used to stay in Portland. I'd go get my hair cut. And they'd say, what do you do? And I'd tell them what I did and then dead silence. And then a few snips later, there's curiosity kicks in.

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[00:04:40] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:04:40] see. Yeah, exactly. What, where did you think that comes from?

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[00:05:04] Liz Hylton: [00:05:04] I think for so long, we've done a really good job of teaching students that the only thing math is, is algebra. And it's so much more than that. And then when we teach algebra, we teach it very theoretically. Yeah. That's usually the way we learned it and it's what we like about it. Um, and it doesn't translate all that well, too.

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[00:05:27] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:05:27] heads because it's not like a practical application. Yeah.

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[00:05:46] And how do you make sense of it without? Cause you have to use it every day. So when your context in what you're doing, you know what to do. You're thinking algebraically excite. It's like, okay, I have to [00:06:00] paint. This is a cool room, by the way. Thank you. I have to paint this and the walls are this high. And so you kind of do some calculations.

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[00:06:31] And I will not tell you how many trips I made to Dennis' company, but it was cause

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[00:06:38] Liz Hylton: [00:06:38] I just want you to send, is it different from the practical and in and edgy math education right now? There's this switch that's been going on for a little while and it's finally starting to take hold where algebra is not the be all end, all.

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[00:06:58] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:06:58] been replaced with something else [00:07:00] that's kind of the be all end all, or just expand it to include it's more

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[00:07:16] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so they call that more quantitative literacy path, which leads ultimately to the study of statistics, whereas yeah. Which is like every day in your whole life. Yeah. If you listened to the news or you turn on read the newspaper, or if you can find a newspaper or listen to a podcast or whatever you do to get your news, the every single day, it's hard to pick it up and not find some reference to statistics

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[00:07:54] In general people have a very poor understanding of statistics.

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[00:08:03] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:08:03] If you have even just a really basic understanding of like sample sizes and population and how that compares. Yeah.

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[00:08:14] If you start looking at the bias, that's built into the selection process, to the sample size, to the type of survey you're doing, you start to find institutional

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[00:08:23] Liz Hylton: [00:08:23] Well, you can find a whole, you can find a whole lot of

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[00:08:31] It helps you draw conclusions.

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[00:08:56] Well, we asked this question and our viewers said [00:09:00] this, well, they don't even match up. They're not even the same. Do you

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[00:09:17] It doesn't

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[00:09:22] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:09:22] Oh, on a pole, on a pole?

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[00:09:41] Yeah. And so I don't put a lot of faith in a lot of things.

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[00:09:59] Yeah, it's probably [00:10:00] very low.

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[00:10:12] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:10:12] I was still at, when I was finishing high school, calculus was like, I did calculus in my senior year of high school

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[00:10:44] If you knew enough information about enough data points, calculus can explain. Everything in the world, in the universe. I agree. And it's kicking explain an awful.

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[00:11:14] You're just like, I could describe all of existence with this. Like it's, it's a good system.

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[00:11:31] And I don't know everything. And I don't, and I don't claim to know because it gets into the physics realm, that's where, that's where I can go so far with physics. And I did teach it for one year out at Napa and had a good time. But, , I'm very limited. Okay. Especially when it gets into the realm of electricity.

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[00:11:59] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:11:59] in [00:12:00] very general terms, is physics more of like, , describing and trying to explain and predict, , how things interact or what their properties are versus math is just.

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[00:12:10] Liz Hylton: [00:12:10] naps math is the language that tells you how those things react. Okay. That's what I was like. I'll tell you. When I took my year of physics, I took it over it Clatsop, and there were like seven of us in the, there, they had general physics and then they had physics with calculus and there were seven of us in there.

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[00:12:55] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:12:55] so what kind of a function would that be?

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[00:13:16] And so the three guys in front of me go totally normal, totally ignoring what I said. And then. I've met a few minutes later, they'd say. So I think maybe we should change the value to this. , yeah, that'd be a good idea. It got so bad. And the instructor, , that was teaching the class came over one day and he said, , gentlemen, I'm not quite sure you realize it, but you do have someone with their, , bachelor's and I was still working on my master's at that time in mathematics.

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[00:14:00] [00:13:59] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:13:59] do you see math in everything?

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[00:14:03] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:14:03] patterns. Yeah.

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[00:14:09]they talk about teaching algebraic reasoning to how, how young can you do that kindergarten? Maybe we're preschool because where does it start? It starts with recognizing

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[00:14:30] Liz Hylton: [00:14:30] Yeah. And activities like even, I know I did one once and I would do this with my math, for elementary teachers, students a lot. We did this crab activity cause you know, crabbing is the big deal here. So we would make, you know, in, in grade school you get to incorporate art and math and science, everything in one unit of study.

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[00:15:06] So you look it up 10, 10. Is that what it is?

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[00:15:23] And so I raised my hand. I was like false. Crab has 10. If you count the two pinches in the front, the eight little legs and two big, big pinchers and I thought , I was gonna get a slam dunk in this critical thinking test. And she's like, Nope, sorry. Nope, eight legs. And, um, it upset me a lot and I ended up making it like my personal vendetta to make her look stupid.

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[00:16:04] Liz Hylton: [00:16:04] Okay. But asshole or not, here's the thing listening. I can't tell you how many times I have learned new methods of solving equations, new methods of doing things from other students in the classroom. When I was at a Wako we had a guy from Norway Allen from Norway and Gustavo from Peru and the stuff Gustavo, well, this is the way we do this.

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[00:16:47] I said, what are you doing? And he was explaining something called an arrow arrow diagram. And the thing about that was when I listened to him, the theory that's that's contained in that is [00:17:00] absolutely amazing. So fast forward to when I was at Clatsop, there was somebody teaching calculus, and I remember she was madder than heck.

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[00:17:25] Cause we're all taught to do it vertically. And, and I said, well, no, it's not a ladder, but here's what it does. And I showed it to her and she looks at me. You mean they teach this to them? And I said, yeah, they do.

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[00:17:41] I've noticed that I've heard this come up lots on other podcasts and stuff that people of my generation who didn't learn it in school are kind of baffled by it and I've looked at it and it. Seems like a way to do math. If you have a lot of extra time on your hands , do you know , how that came to be

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[00:18:19] Or 78, or I was looking at one today and I just go

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[00:18:26] Liz Hylton: [00:18:26] comments, the order of operations, that's all. And they claim, well, that was, that was the old math. If you do the new math, the modern math, it's really this answer I'm going, but that's not, it doesn't even make sense.

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[00:19:00] [00:19:00] A lot of function theory, a lot of basis, different basis, like sixth grade, I remember doing, being taught base eight and sixth grade. And it was taught very formally, like. The first is eight to the zero power eight to the first, all of these ex exponential patterns with different basis. And that's really all math is we use base 10.

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[00:19:44] Yeah. But further than that, look at all this stuff you have going on here and there's, you've got your laptop open. And how do you think your laptop talks, binary, binary. It's all binary. It's all based too. And I have actually taught fifth [00:20:00] graders binary, mine to the

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[00:20:03] Liz Hylton: [00:20:03] right now.

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[00:20:18] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:20:18] I think that's a great detail. Shout out Mr. Chambers.

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[00:20:33] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:20:33] So math is not about our feelings or our familiarity with it. It is just about presenting an idea in a way that makes sense.

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[00:20:46] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:20:46] Yeah. I haven't had to deal much with the common core thing.

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[00:20:52] it's not so much that we're teaching new algorithms. We're just trying to, well, I say we [00:21:00] I'm, maybe I should talk. They, cause we don't worry too much about common core unless we're trying to align to high school or elementary school. , but it's not so much the problem with common core. Isn't what's being taught.

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[00:21:36] Yeah. There is only one solution. But if you have this type of problem, yeah. There could be more solutions and those solutions could depend on what your assumptions are. Yeah. And we already teach that, at least in math, for elementary teachers class, I teach it all the time. Students will say, well, I didn't know where, what answer you wanted, if you wanted this answer, this answer,

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[00:21:59] I mean, [00:22:00] like some answers just are within a range, like yeah, they are. Yeah. But, when you say the mapping racist thing, I'm not completely sure what you're talking about

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[00:22:13] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:22:13] because it's, it's 100% possible to have interpretation of data be racist.

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[00:22:35] Liz Hylton: [00:22:35] We're solving a problem and I'm talking not an equation, not something that there's an algorithm for.

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[00:23:05] And what I try to teach my students is, did I tell you, you couldn't think that way? Did I tell you you had to do it this way? Did I tell you you couldn't do it this way? I didn't know. That would tell me, I'd say. Yeah. And I, and I they'd say no. And I said then if I didn't tell you, you tell me what assumptions you're using and I'm cool with that.

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[00:23:29] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:23:29] but

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[00:23:48]Jeff Nesbitt: [00:23:48] It's probably more based in culture and ethnicity than race per se.

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[00:24:02] Liz Hylton: [00:24:02] And they've been working on that for a long, I mean, that's been an issue. It's hard to get things perfect.

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[00:24:24] No. Yeah, no. I had to take a few classes on writing tests and different kinds of psychological measures in college and I loved it, it really made me good at taking tests because what you have to do is try to put yourself in the mind space of the person who wrote the test, if you want to do well on it.

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[00:24:45] Liz Hylton: [00:24:45] could be an issue. Yeah.

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[00:24:54]Jeff Nesbitt: [00:24:54] the internet has made it to where cultures are blending much faster than they used. Sure. So I think that maybe [00:25:00] this problem will solve itself in a hundred years from now.

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[00:25:04] Liz Hylton: [00:25:04] It's the process of change. I think that is hard for people to take and people are very impatient and people think change has to happen instantaneously. Yeah. And I think if it did happen instantaneously, which is what they're almost trying to insist upon right now.

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[00:25:24] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:25:24] have time to consider consequences and there will always be consequences every time there's a change. Yeah.

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[00:25:33]Jeff Nesbitt: [00:25:33] Let's get back to math a little bit though, because the thing you said about people, I'm sure it bugs you too, but it drives me nuts when I hear people say, when am I ever going to use this in real life?

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[00:25:47] Liz Hylton: [00:25:47] You can't use any tool that you don't have. Yeah,

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[00:25:54] Liz Hylton: [00:25:54] Yeah.

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[00:26:06] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:26:06] those structures, even though they might be very rickety by that time, they're still there. Like you still understand the concepts, at least on some level.

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[00:26:37] Liz Hylton: [00:26:37] but mathematics is way more than just algebra. You mean you've got the statistics part. And even in some universities that you've got the department of statistics and you've got the department of mathematics and they're almost treated as two separate things, but then sometimes like Portland state has gone back and forth.

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[00:27:12] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:27:12] That math is the heart of all of

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[00:27:17] And here's how you can use it better. And that's, what's at the heart of this quantitative literacy path that, , is going on now, which I think is a very good trend.

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[00:27:32] Yeah. And a lot of people just shit all over it. They just want to complain and they just want to like point out the problems we have in education. And it's, it's frustrating. , because no one person's going to have all the answers, but they're certainly, they're certainly going to have a better luck solving problems with a little bit more support from the populous.

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[00:28:08] Look how well you've done, Jeff. Well, thank you. But yeah, exactly. I went to this school district. I know. And um, , honestly I didn't try that hard.

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[00:28:34] Liz Hylton: [00:28:34] was yeah. High. School's a hard, that's a hard gig.

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[00:28:41] Yeah. One year year. And it didn't go so well.

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[00:29:08]There's a quote. When I was doing my student teaching, we had to do this thing called a work sample. We had to analyze students to death and pre-test, post-test put our lesson plans in there and all, and I would put in each lesson, I'd find a quote and there's a quote.

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[00:29:28] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:29:28] Oh, wow. That's a great quote.

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[00:29:43] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:29:43] I really believe that

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[00:29:55] Yeah.

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[00:30:03] Liz Hylton: [00:30:03] it. Yeah. Yeah. If I were doing, if I were doing that year over again, I would've done things a lot differently, but I can say that after I'd have the rest of the years of experience now behind me, it was my second year.

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[00:30:40] We were going camping, which maybe it was more glamping than camping. We had your cause. No, we didn't want to do tips, but we had a good time. Anyway, Rick and I was packing up my stuff and Rick and Tim came to me and Rick was leaving a Wako and he was going to Napa and he said, I want you to come with [00:31:00] me.

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[00:31:08] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:31:08] You were just convinced that kids were all going to be the same.

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[00:31:17] And a lot of the students there went through a lot of, there was some things that, that, , I remember some students going through that year. , it high school just tough. It is tough. It almost always is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just tough. I try to remind parents , I try to remind administrators , and this push that they have now to get students out of high school with as many college credits as possible.

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[00:32:07] And you're worrying about getting I'm graduating from college the same time, the graduated from high school. And I don't, it's a lot, it's a lot, and that's fine for the students who are motivated and that's what they want. Yeah. I think a lot of times the students who are doing that, it does the motivation doesn't always come from within it maybe comes from parental units or.

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[00:32:37] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:32:37] That's a lot of times where the opportunities are coming from too. Yeah. Which is kind of unfortunate for the kids who don't have anybody pushing them. I'm going to play the devil's advocate here for a minute.

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[00:33:09]Liz Hylton: [00:33:09] it's incredibly difficult, but it's much easier right now because there are programs out there that address that there are software programs that can identify what, and I'm talking at the basic skill level, at least with mathematics and they do it in other , subjects as well. But it's math that I'm familiar with.

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[00:33:47] And if you've got a D in algebra one and they put you in algebra two, Okay. You're doomed from the start. Yeah. Yeah. , and then if you try to teach to the middle of the class, I remember Rick passed [00:34:00] saying that to me. Well, can't you just teach them in the middle? I said, Rick, there is no middle there. It's not a bell curve.

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[00:34:22] I'm working with Ken and Lindsey's son Cola. I'm working with him because he's been school shuffled between here and San Diego. And now he's up at Oak Harbor. Yeah. And then remote in the middle. So he and I are working together on this, this software program

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[00:34:43] So it like adjust to you as you go. Yeah. It's

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[00:35:05]You know, the. Basic steps of solving an equation, all the equality properties, um, maybe, you know, get credit for distribution. Maybe you get credit for handling fractions. And all of that gets counted off in one problem. That's really handy. And so it's with a relative leash, few amount of questions, like 25 to 30, , it can assess what you don't know and what you do know, and then it takes you on a path that starts asking you questions really close to what you already know.

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[00:35:45] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:35:45] So , it's pretty much trying to achieve, , a flow state where it balances familiarity with challenge. And it does that continuously. So it's like made a new, more efficient system for learning. Sounds like

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[00:35:59] I think it's pretty [00:36:00] cool. There's people who really instructors who don't understand it and they just really dislike it.

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[00:36:11] Liz Hylton: [00:36:11] over and over. Yeah. And you have to do it. 25 times, I tell students when I'm using that program in some classes, I would say, do you remember being in high school?

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[00:36:39] So I would sometimes give students, if you feel like that, skip ahead and do this one. And I hope this is how the textbooks are arranged and here's how you can pick the problems you should do to make sure don't just stop halfway through, but pick the ones you want to do. Well, this program does that for you.

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[00:36:57] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:36:57] like it would get rid of some of the biggest [00:37:00] problems with maths, as a student more specifically like that. Monotonous feeling that you get if after doing them over and over, or that feeling where if you are maybe on the lower side of understanding and you're faced with doing 30 of these problems, you don't even understand the first one.

[: 00:37:16

[00:37:17] Liz Hylton: [00:37:17] Yeah. That is. And why is that? Crushing is because you don't have the prerequisite, there's some gap in your knowledge. So these type of programs work on identifying what those gaps are and filling those gaps before it lets you work on those problems again. So these programs are designed, so it won't let you work on things.

[: 00:37:34

[00:37:36]Jeff Nesbitt: [00:37:36] I've known some people who have legitimate, psychological problem with math, where they will. And I'm sure you see this all the time where it, it causes them a physical reaction where they, they freeze up. They can't talk. I do think,

[: 00:37:48

[00:37:58]So there was a sticker that you could [00:38:00] get at math conferences and stuff. And it said crying. There's no crying in math class. And I used to have that sticker on my office window.

[: 00:38:08

[00:38:25] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:38:25] That's, that's a super power that you have , that I want to try to learn is being okay with other people when they're in a crisis.

[: 00:38:32

[00:38:46] Um, but at the same time, I'm not trying to co-opt their grief and make it about me. Like I'm not, yeah, it's, it's a dance that you have to do. And, and I, I just haven't had enough experience dealing with it. Um, and maybe I overthink it, but [00:39:00] it's tough. How do you deal with that?

[: 00:39:01

[00:39:04] Like

[: 00:39:04

[00:39:13] Liz Hylton: [00:39:13] Yup. The, and I worry about those things too. I think. Should I be saying this? Should I say that? Do I know? I don't know what to say in this circumstance. I haven't seen it before, but then I get to a point where it doesn't matter.

[: 00:39:28

[00:39:47] You're being there and just sitting with them and being with them is much more meaningful and valuable than you saying the right words, because whatever's happened. [00:40:00] You can't fix it. There isn't anything you can say that's going to fix what's happened. Whether it's it's someone who's, , grandma died at 104, , doing what she wanted to do or just fell asleep and didn't wake up or something more traumatic, you know, whether it's a traffic accident or whether it's a murder or whether it's suicide or whether it's, whatever it is, , you can't fix it.

[: 00:40:27

[00:41:00] [00:40:59] Even related and maybe laughing about something else. I remember sitting there and we're trying to figure out, cause Chris has relatives, you know, in, in England and different time zones. And well, if we have the service that this time when we broadcasted or record it, when should they turn in and just people with their phones out trying to figure, okay, it's eight hours difference from here to here.

[: 00:41:24

[00:41:59] It's [00:42:00] also the same thing that was coming from Jensen's by the time I got to Spokane, Chris called me and she says, we need to see Jeff. Yeah. And I said, I'm going to get him right now. And it wasn't that date. It wasn't, it wasn't, I don't even know if it was anything logical. It was this. I remember Dave saying, I just need to know Jeff is all right.

[: 00:42:20

[00:42:38] They grew up together and they were, they were very close and I might've even spent more time with Luke in the last couple of years of his life, because we went to the same school down in California and we had a lot of similar friends. He was one of the only people I knew down there. So I like looked to him for support.

[: 00:42:53

[00:43:22] I don't, I don't really know what is behind that, but yeah, that was a horrible experience.

[: 00:43:28

[00:43:56] I mean, the relationships are different and the, and the, [00:44:00] , experiences you shared together are different and that causes your grief to be different, but it's still it's, you've got your own, you've got your own. And how do you know? It's just, it's, it's a tough thing because this grief deal, you just got to walk through it when it happens.

[: 00:44:20

[00:44:40] here's a Kleenex. Yeah. You want some more Kleenex or it's okay. Come over. And if you just want to talk, just let let's just talk.

[: 00:44:49

[00:44:55] Liz Hylton: [00:44:55] Yeah. I've, I've said this to lots of students when they've come in my office and they say, I don't [00:45:00] know what I want. I say, well, what do you want to be like my advisors? What do you want to be when you grow up? I have no idea. And I, and I've said to some of them, not all of them, I said, be careful. Um, because I didn't either and look where I ended up. that was kind of how it happened. Just I had this curiosity, I used to really love horror movies. I mean, from the time I was little, like little preschool watching outer limits and Twilight and zones. And we were laughing the other day because one of the things on direct TV was planned. This whole bee movie called the Crawley.

[: 00:45:35

[00:45:51] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:45:51] always had a flare for the

[: 00:45:52

[00:45:56] Is that the right word? I think so. Probably. Um, [00:46:00] and this kind of curiosity, I remember being in high school or, or maybe younger and driving past funeral homes and wondering, is there a dead body on the other side of that window? Why is that window frosted? Is that where they keep them? If I walk in where there'll be one right there and I didn't.

[: 00:46:18

[00:46:45] He wasn't overweight. He wasn't, if you looked at him, you wouldn't think he had the standard, you know, somebody who died young of a stroke. I have no idea if he had high blood pressure, but he had, um, I remember growing [00:47:00] up, he always wore these special shoes. They were like these big boot kind of things.

[: 00:47:06

[00:47:36] Uh, similar to what, remember Luke, when he had his issue and they life-flighted it

[: 00:47:42

[00:47:58] It looked neurological, [00:48:00] uh, from, from just watching it happen and fell hard on the ground. And they picked him up and they carried him out and called his parents. And we heard later that day that he was being life-flighted .

[: 00:48:08

[00:48:14] It had some of the same symptoms I think. And it was pressure on his brain. Yeah. So dad had that a few times when he was around the age of 14, 15, 16, and what we found out after he died. His parents my grandparents, were both having affairs at the same time.

[: 00:48:33

[00:48:49] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:48:49] which was that dressing

[: 00:48:51

[00:49:00] So,

[: 00:49:01

[00:49:05] Liz Hylton: [00:49:05] it's high stress, not good. Anyway, so we found out all that afterwards, but, , my mom and dad had been divorced. I got when I was 18. And so this is like two years later. My dad had been remarried for about a year, I think, to a cheap mom, imitation, you know how sometimes that happens.

[: 00:49:29

[00:49:50] I mean, I didn't know any different. And my brother Dennis was in, had just joined the air force. He was stationed in Germany at the time, but my brother Mike was [00:50:00] still living with my mom and their house had burnt down like a couple of years before. And a few years before, and he was the one who woke up and saw the flames and got everybody else out of the house.

[: 00:50:12

[00:50:35] You kids handle it, and I'm going okay. 20 where 2018 and 16, my brother flew in, got leave from Germany. And we had to find the burial place and deal with the funeral home down here to make the connection. And we weren't getting, we weren't supposed to tell mom or let mom help.

[: 00:50:57

[00:51:14]and dad wasn't a veteran. So we went to Lincoln cemetery and went to their office and we just walked in and it kind of relates to something you said about You don't want to make their grief, your grief. Okay. Walked in. We walked in the three of us, not knowing a thing that was going on not having a dime between us and this man walks up.

[: 00:51:40

[00:52:01] And I remember thinking, why do you look so depressed? It wasn't your dad who died. And so it kind of relates to that. And so we went through the whole thing and got dad buried, , down here. And years later, when I went into the funeral business, I always wondered when I would meet with families, this, this experience I had with dad, , I never wanted to make their grief, my grief at the same time, you don't want to be flippant.

[: 00:52:34

[00:53:00] [00:53:00] Tell me what happened. Just be into humans. Yeah. Tell me what happened. What happened or tell me about your dad. Tell me about your cousin. Tell me about this. And then just sit back, um, sit back and just listen. And most of the time they have something to say and w and Ron picked up on that because I used to do that.

[: 00:53:22

[00:53:45] There it's the most vulnerable, whether they were close to the person or not, or whether they, I shouldn't say close, I should say whether their relationship was good or bad, whatever it was both tragic. Yeah. It [00:54:00] still hasn't has an effect. And just getting them to, to talk and open up and just listening.

[: 00:54:08

[00:54:39] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:54:39] Yeah. That's

[: 00:54:39

[00:54:46] Um,

[: 00:54:47

[00:54:51] Liz Hylton: [00:54:51] It was

[: 00:54:52

[00:54:56] Liz Hylton: [00:54:56] 25 years. Okay. Oh, no. We had the, we had the funeral home for [00:55:00] 30, 30, almost 30. A little over 31 years. Wow. Yeah. That's like since 1989, April, April fool's day of 1989. And I had worked in the business.

[: 00:55:11

[00:55:26] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:55:26] started in mortuary school, pregnant with Lindsay, and then you got a master's degree and then subsequently a doctorate.

[: 00:55:33

[00:55:53] Um, my associate's degree is short Mount hood. Um, my, all my other degrees, [00:56:00] those three, my bachelor's, my two masters are from Portland state. And then I started a doctoral program, , to get my EDD in curriculum and instruction. And I finished the program, but I did not finish my dissertation. The dissertation, a lot of things happened.

[: 00:56:19

[00:56:47] And I finally, I finally just emailed the professor and said, it's not, there's not a way, and there's not a chance it's going to happen. , so I didn't do that assignment. So since 2011, [00:57:00] was it sounds,

[: 00:57:00

[00:57:06] Oh my gosh, Luke, didn't come back last night. And I thought like, Oh, Luke must have been drinking or partying or something. He didn't come home. I didn't think of it as a big deal. And then I went and found that it was that the boat had gone down. It was just like, it was such a shock. I went home

[: 00:57:23

[00:57:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I didn't finish. Um, I didn't do it, but, um, there were other, some other factors. Um, there were some other factors and so I'm what they call. I have my doctorate, but I'm add, so I can say I have my EDD, but I have to put the letters ABD after it, which means all but dissertation and.

[: 00:57:47

[00:58:02] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:58:02] good. Well, cause I make fun of them sometimes. So now I don't feel as

[: 00:58:05

[00:58:06] I won't go into it now, but I can tell you lots of stories about

[: 00:58:10

[00:58:12] Liz Hylton: [00:58:12] administration. Usually, actually the classes were good the way it's said there was a lot of good things about, I learned a lot about online learning. If I haven't done, if I hadn't have done those three years, um, online, I probably wouldn't have been able to survive remote learning.

[: 00:58:27

[00:58:28] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:58:28] did, it's gotten so much better. It is. I took calculus online, uh, in high school and it was a disaster. I had such a hard time and the teacher who was supposed to be helping me, wasn't helping me. So I was just even over my head. And then I took some online classes 10 years later and it had already improved so much.

[: 00:58:47

[00:58:53] Liz Hylton: [00:58:53] good. Oh yeah. I'm getting to be a pretty, pretty good at zoom more than, , I, more than [00:59:00] I've ever wanted to be. I don't like it. , you know, there's problems, but anyway, you can't call me doctor because I don't have my dissertation, but by the time I got to that point, I thought I don't need this.

[: 00:59:12

[00:59:18] Jeff Nesbitt: [00:59:18] well, yeah, I mean, what could you, what could you do with them, with the dissertation that you couldn't already do with all your other credentials? You've got a lot of stuff.

[: 00:59:25

[00:59:29] I knew exactly what I wanted to research and what I want to collect out on. And I already knew what the outcome was and I didn't need, what was your topic? Resistance to change, , and teaching style and because in education it is all about change. And it related to some experiences I had over at cloud security college with some individuals over there.

[: 00:59:54

[01:00:15] It's one person departments,

[: 01:00:17

[01:00:19] Liz Hylton: [01:00:19] So you get used to doing what you want when you want and not having to work with anybody else. Yeah. And so when a department needs to work together and you know, these changes that happen, , throughout education process, That's what I, that's what I was trying to document.

[: 01:00:36

[01:00:49] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:00:49] So less lecturing, more interacting. Yeah.

[: 01:00:53

[01:01:02] If you provide, if you provide the proper environment kind of scandal half and scaffold it, you don't need to tell them every single thing. And you don't need to talk for one to two hours straight. Yeah. And if you didn't say it and you, you get this feeling, if you didn't say it, if you didn't say it, they're not going to get it or that you said it, they should get it.

[: 01:01:31

[01:01:39] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:01:39] collaborative process. You're building, building these structures of knowledge in their heads with them, rather than just talking at them.

[: 01:01:47

[01:02:10]and it assessed how student-centered or instructor centered you were. Cause all, I think a lot of people think they're student-centered, but they're not, Oh, oh yeah. I'm very student centered and you walk by their classrooms day after day after day. And they are still the only one doing anything in the room.

[: 01:02:27

[01:02:37] Liz Hylton: [01:02:37] in their patterns. So now you put zoom, bring zoom into it.

[: 01:02:41

[01:02:43] Liz Hylton: [01:02:43] passive learning. There you go. And you can do breakout rooms and having how structuring breakout rooms so that they're, , do what they're supposed to do.

[: 01:02:52

[01:03:13] And there's more communication. They're sharing, you know, group projects and they're doing doing that, but, , it's taken a year to get there. You can't do it in, it's hard to do in a term. And so then getting a new class every

[: 01:03:27

[01:03:36] Liz Hylton: [01:03:36] system.

[: 01:03:36

[01:03:57] Oh, they're gone

[: 01:03:57

[01:03:59] Liz Hylton: [01:03:59] first. [01:04:00] Well, that's what we did a few years ago when I went to bend, Ron didn't need at the internet cause he used the funeral home. And so now when I called century link to get it back. That's the biggest fiasco. Oh man. I bet finally just sent their box back and they said you can't

[: 01:04:15

[01:04:15] Terrible company. I mean, maybe they do other stuff, but as far as providing internet to Chinook, they suck.

[: 01:04:22

[01:04:38] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:04:38] Yeah. Well, we laugh about having internet down here. If you ever need to use it. Feel free. Jeff will give you the password. You can come down here anytime.

[: 01:04:47

[01:04:57] So it's like a cabin [01:05:00] kind of sort of thing. Yeah.

[: 01:05:03

[01:05:07]Liz Hylton: [01:05:07] I mean, it works real well. I shouldn't, I shouldn't. And I'm grateful to be able to use that. Yeah.

[: 01:05:13

[01:05:18] Liz Hylton: [01:05:18] my hope in with Elon Musk. Me too.

[: 01:05:20

[01:05:27] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:05:27] My and that's satellite internet, right? Yeah.

[: 01:05:30

[01:05:35] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:05:35] Yeah. I wonder how many they've got up there now for Starlink?

[: 01:05:38

[01:05:40] Liz Hylton: [01:05:40] Yeah. Maybe it's more, maybe it's less.

[: 01:05:42

[01:05:54] I

[: 01:05:54

[01:05:55] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:05:55] a good thing. He's clearly a strange dude and communicates differently than a lot of other people. But I just thought [01:06:00] that was because his head was so full of thoughts that it makes him kind of talk different.

[: 01:06:04

[01:06:07] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:06:07] don't. Yeah. I'm a big fan.

[: 01:06:09

[01:06:25] Liz Hylton: [01:06:25] I bet. I just, , I just, Ron brought it up this morning and I thought, well fine.

[: 01:06:31

[01:06:36] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:06:36] it's not hard anymore.

[: 01:06:37

[01:06:47] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:06:47] it's the same way it was with a lot of different concepts that that just seem too hard to comprehend until you let yourself realize that they might actually be simpler than that. And you might actually already understand it. And you just weren't able to see that. [01:07:00] it's really just like a consensus program that we're all these different computers have to agree that this is the truth. It's a way to, it's just a way to, , ensure security basically, , spread across a huge amount of different computers instead of just instead of the bank saying, Hey, we have this register and it says that you have thousand dollars in the bank here.

[: 01:07:21

[01:07:27] Liz Hylton: [01:07:27] okay. So, so I read this book. Well, I didn't didn't read cause I don't read books much anymore. I listened

[: 01:07:36

[01:07:39] Liz Hylton: [01:07:39] that's right. So it was by Jim Patterson and bill Clinton.

[: 01:07:44

[01:08:15] They were shutting down everything. They were shutting down, you know, like. Utilities, all the utilities,

[: 01:08:22

[01:08:25] Liz Hylton: [01:08:25] And when you shut down investment accounts, it messes with people's. There's no record of how much money you had in your retirement account anymore. No record of what you have in.

[: 01:08:38

[01:08:52] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:08:52] Well, there's always that disability, anytime we go digital, we're dealing with that, but we're all digital now.

[: 01:08:57

[01:09:30] Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. So it's, it's really, it's come from me. It's come down to like, I see the world is changing and it's moving in this direction. And I remember being a kid and being like, I really wish I would've get got in on Yahoo when I had the opportunity. I'm like 16 years old feeling that the regret for not getting in early on these things, because it's, you see these patterns of these breakout technologies , and if you're not in early, you're getting left behind and eventually you're going to have to adopt anyway.

[: 01:09:59

[01:10:04] Liz Hylton: [01:10:04] Yeah. Well, I remember when the Apple iPhone first came out, I said to Ron, we need to buy some Apple stock. And he poo-pooed, it, it was expensive in our fight. Well, got a lot more expensive.

[: 01:10:15

[01:10:45] They said, this is a emotional decision and blah, blah, blah. And then I just sat back and watched it go up and up and up. And that's what splits everyone that has financed. I can't tell you, well, it financed part of my down payment for my house in bend. It [01:11:00] financed three years of grad school. It financed.

[: 01:11:02

[01:11:08]Jeff Nesbitt: [01:11:08] You'd be millionaires.

[: 01:11:09

[01:11:16] And he came down to the beach. One time we were sitting at the we'd always meet at the funeral home and he'd come in, I'd look at him. I said, well, bill, you're ready to hire me. And he just smiled. And he says, any fool can hit a hole in one, once I said whatever,

[: 01:11:33

[01:11:35] Liz Hylton: [01:11:35] Just because the iPhone was so the iPod was my first glimpse. That was so revolutionary and now, um, and then when the iPhone hit and Apple is so much, I just disliked PCs because I there. So. Complicated.

[: 01:11:56

[01:12:02] They are way more than this machine, but yeah, but

[: 01:12:05

[01:12:24] Yeah. It still shows up on my phone. I get a text from her that says Mariah. Cause it was her phone when she worked for, Oh,

[: 01:12:30

[01:12:30] Liz Hylton: [01:12:30] Jeff and I were driving over to our story for something and I've got this phone and I said, okay, I'm going to program this. And nothing made sense to me. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. So I do, usually I do pretty well going back and forth between Apple products and PC products. But in general, it's the thing that's telling is the more, the PC is more and more are trying to mimic.

[: 01:12:55

[01:13:08] Liz Hylton: [01:13:08] mobile. That's what, yeah. That's what Ron has on his, um, His desktop that we brought down from the funeral home.

[: 01:13:16

[01:13:20] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:13:20] I don't know what to tell you. What version of it was. Some of, one of them didn't even have a desktop option. It was just like tiles. And that was it. Yeah. Now, now it's back

[: 01:13:28

[01:13:36] Yeah.

[: 01:13:36

[01:13:57] I don't think so. It's

[: 01:13:58

[01:14:20] I've got my iPad and I just zoom over. I do the whiteboard on the iPad and I can download everything's nice. And does you know, through the air? Yeah, I have a pencil. That's like awesome.

[: 01:14:32

[01:14:41] Um, I mean, I haven't done it for a while. I've been busy, but when I go to conferences and I'm just sitting there, I have a really hard time listening, unless my hands are doing something, my eyes are doing something. I always have

[: 01:14:53

[01:14:55] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:14:55] And, so I draw, I mostly just like eyeballs. I like to draw [01:15:00] eyeballs.

[: 01:15:00

[01:15:30] So I like YouTube how to draw an eyeball and I'll just draw eyes. So I have a bunch of really cool looking to draw drawings of eyes in my tablet, but in trees, I like to draw eyes and trees. Sometimes I put eyes on the trees, but, ,yeah, the Apple pencil made that a lot of fun.

[: 01:15:46

[01:15:56] So I went down to do all my work at, , the office. [01:16:00] And so I went there and tried to hook it up with my iPad. Didn't connect. Didn't have the right dongle. Well, I know I didn't have any dongles. Well, I did have, but nothing. And I started and I don't freak out very often.

[: 01:16:13

[01:16:35] Cause I start talking to myself and talking to the computer and a little cussing out here and there. And so one of the tech guys he comes over and he says, okay, just calm down, just calm down. And I've got this Mac book air, and he says, you just need this USB port.

[: 01:16:51

[01:17:12] And because they've got a firewall up that won't let the things talk wirelessly. Oh yeah. And it only affects a Mac. It doesn't affect. Yeah.

[: 01:17:23

[01:17:32] Liz Hylton: [01:17:32] So when we bought Jess, when we, when Jeff got his and he went to pick it up in Portland, I ordered, okay, give me that dongle. And I want this cord cause they have those funny little connectors. I forget what their

[: 01:17:44

[01:17:49] So

[: 01:17:49

[01:17:53] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:17:53] than mine. I have a couple of different ones. I like this one because I had one that clamped right to the side, but you wouldn't mind, you can close the [01:18:00] lid. Um, so yeah, without breaking that hinge. So I just ditched that one and got the more external version that lets me connect to the TV and stuff too.

[: 01:18:10

[01:18:29] Everybody has an iPhone in there. It did.

[: 01:18:31

[01:18:44] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:18:44] market share. Yeah. But if they could just,

[: 01:18:47

[01:18:47] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:18:47] yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty good. The, um, yeah, what's his name? The guy who's the CEO now Tim cook.

[: 01:18:55

[01:19:10] Liz Hylton: [01:19:10] lot. So I, my I'd want an Apple watch.

[: 01:19:14

[01:19:34] So she did, she didn't want an Apple watch Tacoma. Cause she's her dad's daughter. I don't know

[: 01:19:40

[01:19:52] Liz Hylton: [01:19:52] with your wrist.

[: 01:19:53

[01:20:16] No. Um, and Lindsay said, Jake, well, you can say whatever you want. Cause you know, dad's not going to listen to this podcast because he's not a, that's not his,

[: 01:20:25

[01:20:34] He seems like a very private person. He is, he is. So you guys spent some time living separately. How did that affect your marriage?

[: 01:20:44

[01:20:56] And he's a printer. Yeah. Our garage is full of printing equipment,

[: 01:21:00

[01:21:04] Liz Hylton: [01:21:04] Yeah. Old, old, inner type. And he not, yeah. Line of type is the, is the more popular version, but inner type is what he has and that's not going to be anything anybody even knows,

[: 01:21:22

[01:21:24] Liz Hylton: [01:21:24] typeface, but he makes, he has, they all have pot celebs.

[: 01:21:27

[01:21:48] He had the biggest letter press operation in the Pacific Northwest,

[: 01:21:51

[01:21:54] Liz Hylton: [01:21:54] and yeah. Yeah. I imagine that there were still things that he could do even then like, [01:22:00] yeah, like businesses used to get fancy business cards, but they they'd be blanks. You know, they have their logo and stuff on it and they would call him up and say, and he would keep all their stock and they'd call him up and say, we need 200, we've got this new employee, here's the information and just imprint this.

[: 01:22:17

[01:22:38] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:22:38] yeah.

[: 01:22:39

[01:22:44] Liz Hylton: [01:22:44] education background? She's a nurse registered nurse. That's what I thought went to good Samaritan school of nursing. It was diploma school. So it was three years, but very hands-on he and my mom graduated from nursing school the same year in 1977.

[: 01:22:57

[01:23:04] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:23:04] Did you do study abroad or is that

[: 01:23:06

[01:23:23] I was, Oh, I was not.

[: 01:23:26

[01:23:31] Liz Hylton: [01:23:31] I don't want them to do, um, to give free school free community college. I don't, I don't want it to be free with no conditions because they'll turn into high school too many.

[: 01:23:45

[01:24:12] Yeah, that's not good. And I would rather, they go into a trade and get something , where they can get some income. And then some self-fulfillment that.

[: 01:24:21

[01:24:26] Like I'm going to do what I'm supposed to do, but never fully engage and never really get that sense of identity through the work. You get that self fulfillment, you need to be self-motivated at least to some extent. Yeah, I think, yeah. And it doesn't

[: 01:24:40

[01:24:45] He also went to Benson high school when it was still a trade school. I don't know if it is as much of a trade school now as it was then, but that's where he learned to print and his, one of his printing instructors and he became very close friends. And Howard worked with Ron. He [01:25:00] even came down to the beach after we moved down here and helped him with his printing equipment.

[: 01:25:03

[01:25:26] And, um, uh, so. That summer I came back from Belfast in 77 and well, so I came back September 15th and that January, I think is when I started working at the print shop. Oh, okay. Somewhere in 78. So it was in 78 that we met each other and, um, fall in love right away. No, I was dating Scotty, the boy scout in the shipping department and he was dating.

[: 01:25:57

[01:26:00] Liz Hylton: [01:26:00] Yeah. And he was dating our Dell, who he later married and , we all knew that wasn't going to work. Everybody knew, but him. And so we just waited that out, which shouldn't take too long because Ron and I started going out And we were married in 84, but I met him at the print shop and what he, he was renting space out from the back. He kind of had his own business in the back of the shop and he had his own phone line. And he would print all the funeral folders.

[: 01:26:27

[01:26:47]And when he would go to lunch, he'd say, can you answer my phones for me? And I'd say, sure, I can answer your phones. And that's when I started taking orders for a funeral home funeral folders.

[: 01:26:57

[01:26:59][01:27:00] Liz Hylton: [01:26:59] it was before I was doing that.

[: 01:27:02

[01:27:04]Liz Hylton: [01:27:04] Then I met Ron and when we started dating, he and I used to both be runners back then and when they opened up the Glen Jackson bridge, . Before they opened the bridge together, the run between Oregon and Washington. So across and back, and he always talked about this guy, he, a friend of his name, Richard who managed, , gateway chapel of the chimes, a funeral home in gateway part of Portland.

[: 01:27:30

[01:27:48] And at one point he showed us the chapel and he goes through, as you can see, it's a very conservative chapel and we can close these louvered doors here and I can adjust the lighting, you know, in case you need a romantic moment. And I go, yeah, [01:28:00] a romantic moment in a funeral home. He goes, people could get married here if they wanted to.

[: 01:28:05

[01:28:24] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:28:24] you know,

[: 01:28:24

[01:28:25] No, but it comes with all that stuff perks because by then I was working in the funeral home. I was going to go into nursing at that point and had all my pre-recs. I didn't want an associates degree. I wanted to go to OSU, which my advisor said, yeah, I know you got a four point, but it's still going to take you two years to get in.

[: 01:28:43

[01:29:01] So I went and worked there and then we got married and Richard offered me an apprenticeship. And I thought, well, it comes with a free apartment. , so I lived in that apartment until we got married I did my apprenticeship with Richard, and then I went to mortuary school and then , Lindsey was born right after national board exams.

[: 01:29:21

[01:29:27] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:29:27] awhile national board exams. That's no joke.

[: 01:29:29

[01:29:40] Yeah. Anyway, I did that. , and then worked, I was in a kind of unique position and people said, well, we just need started out. We need somebody to work weekends, or we need somebody to just fill in, help us out on this service. We're really busy. So I was doing a lot of part-time work at a lot of different funeral homes and kind of learning the [01:30:00] business there.

[: 01:30:01

[01:30:16] And in the car, I'm reading the folder, trying to find out information about the family. Like, like I knew background and I'd go in, do the service, go to the cemetery, do that. And then making announcements, not always speaking, but, coordinating then greeting the family, seeding the family,

[: 01:30:35

[01:30:38] Liz Hylton: [01:30:38] and the minister.

[: 01:30:38

[01:30:43] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:30:43] I have a question that has always seemed important to me. Given the circumstances of your profession, what do you think happens after you die? Or what do you think we go to heaven? Do you think it all just ends? What do you think

[: 01:30:56

[01:30:56] I, I don't think it ends [01:31:00] and I,

[: 01:31:04

[01:31:29] And then it was not a conservative Baptist, America. I mean, Baptist, there's a Southern Baptist conservative Baptist, American Baptist. And they don't really always get along with each other. Yeah, I've noticed that and then, , in high school that was when the Jesus people movement was going on.

[: 01:31:46

[01:32:09] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:32:09] hip hipster, hipster, Christians

[: 01:32:12

[01:32:12] Yeah. Hit more hippie than hipster. Okay. Hipster. Yeah. Free spirit.

[: 01:32:18

[01:32:20] Liz Hylton: [01:32:20] No, it wasn't. It wasn't, it was really, I was a good time. I mean, it was, uh, it was something I needed at the really needed at the time. Cause I was sort of floundering and then, , Through different connections and stuff.

[: 01:32:35

[01:32:52] And I went to Bible school. They had their own Bible college. It's up on, you know, if you go over two Oh five now and you see [01:33:00] those kind of bubble buildings on the Hill, have you seen those? Yeah. That's them has them over the old Judson Baptist.

[: 01:33:06

[01:33:07]Liz Hylton: [01:33:07] I mean, I know the people who built them and, , my old youth pastor was one of the guys, Butch Smith who , built those anyway. That's where really my faith foundations come from is that time. And I went to a year of Bible school cause I, I knew college wasn't for me.

[: 01:33:24

[01:33:47] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:33:47] Like the, what is it? The IRA IRA.

[: 01:33:49

[01:34:09] And it's like a, one of those, one of those markers in your life that it's weird.

[: 01:34:14

[01:34:28] And like you turned from there and went this direction or, or, or another direction. Yeah. I have those two just, and especially in those years where you're, you're young and you're just kind of getting your footing as an adult. It seems like those are really important chapters,

[: 01:34:41

[01:34:42] I mean, stuff I did that summer. I mean, experiences I had and just even doing that for a summer , I knew where I was going to stay for three weeks and I, I did a charter flight for three months. Oh,

[: 01:34:56

[01:34:58] Liz Hylton: [01:34:58] Yeah, it was open it. You were going for [01:35:00] adventure. There's connections I've made.

[: 01:35:01

[01:35:07] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:35:07] what the question was. I don't know we were, we got off topic, but, um, Oh yeah. We were just talking about, uh, religious philosophy,

[: 01:35:13

[01:35:25] And then now it's called manna house in Portland. Sounds delicious. But I know, I know, but those, those relationships I have that were made back then are the strongest relationships I've had. We had a, there was a Bible school reunion in 2017. , and I went back there and it was like, we didn't even miss a beat.

[: 01:35:48

[01:36:04] And back in the day in the late seventies, it was pretty legalistic. We thought, meaning. Oh, well,

[: 01:36:13

[01:36:22] Liz Hylton: [01:36:22] Well, like the rules just matter. Mattered a lot rules, especially at Bible school.

[: 01:36:29

[01:36:32] What does that mean?

[: 01:36:33

[01:36:36] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:36:36] imprisoned you on the campus.

[: 01:36:39

[01:36:45] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:36:45] didn't follow the rules?

[: 01:36:47

[01:36:53] Wow. The dorms were these houses and a fiveplex and different things around. It was a cool little [01:37:00] community.

[: 01:37:00

[01:37:25] Windward dress guys always had to have their tie on. , and so my demerits came from nothing. Remember my roommate got campus because her skirts was too short. Well, at least that's kind of a cool thing to get your marital rebellious to get campus. For me, there was one vacuum in this whole fiveplex. So I had to go out and the rooms got the dorms, got checked every day.

[: 01:37:49

[01:38:07] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:38:07] Did you like the environment where it's kind of structured?

[: 01:38:09

[01:38:10] Liz Hylton: [01:38:10] know it was very structured. It was very safe. There's pros and cons to that kind of setup. There are, but. We worked everybody worked together. Like I worked at a daycare center and all the employees and the afternoon shift were from the Bible college. It was like the people who took you you had those people working.

[: 01:38:31

[01:38:49] And then the evenings you're back in the dorm, these are studying or, you know, there's youth group, there's choir, there's everything.

[: 01:38:56

[01:39:00] It's still operated the same way. Um, my junior year in high school tilt probably, , mid. Was 77, 80, early eighties.

[: 01:39:11

[01:39:26] Did you pick up habits like that from living life? ,

[: 01:39:28

[01:39:56] And I felt like there was a different direction I [01:40:00] needed to take. And so I started talking to the elders , and such, and I got advice one time that said, if you ever leave this place, it's because Satan has your mind and you will never be able to trust anything. You, um, that's a coal or believe again.

[: 01:40:19

[01:40:43] I mean, it was one of the first real big churches,

[: 01:40:45

[01:41:10] Liz Hylton: [01:41:10] so they're

[: 01:41:13

[01:41:14] Okay. So I think though that there are just these systems in our psychology that are attracted to being put in a group, given a position, given a role, and have these community systems where you serve a purpose, you receive benefits on behalf of the system you give on behalf of the system.

[: 01:41:33

[01:42:03] And so I I'm really torn when I watch these cult shows I just watched this one called the vow is on HBO and it's about the Nexium Colt. And it was like, uh, th th they just broke up a couple of years ago after a big scandal. I haven't gotten to the end of the series.

[: 01:42:17

[01:42:33] They use real techniques. And then they use those and twist them into eventually like funneling women into having sex with the leader. , but everything below that is actually pretty legit and kind of useful and helpful. So it's just like, I don't know. I'm afraid of that kind of stuff. Big time, especially when they say things like that, where like, Hey, if you, if you find yourself questioning the leader, that means that the devil is attacking you.

[: 01:42:57

[01:42:57] Liz Hylton: [01:42:57] That's dangerous. That one statement. [01:43:00] Haunted me for forever because I don't believe, I don't believe it. Yeah. And I don't believe that's why I wanted to leave now to get out of this there I moved in with the guy that was going with weren't married. Oh no, no, but they didn't, like, there was a little intervention that went on.

[: 01:43:18

[01:43:42] I truly believe that it's, that foundation that's helped me, those times and helped me help Jeff, because when he was up in Bellingham with you, one time he went to visit you. And it was one of those things where I was. I [01:44:00] was, um, I didn't know what to do. I tried for years and years to control his behavior here's what you have to do and try to get him yeah.

[: 01:44:09

[01:44:52]I didn't get an answer. So the next day, well send him another one. So I sent him another one. I don't know what I sent, but then I got a text back [01:45:00] and all he said was. I like the first one better. And that verse, when he was in jail, when he was in jail, he said, can you send me that? And still sitting in his room on the dresser, in his room is the thing I sent him when he was in jail, which is that verse.

[: 01:45:18

[01:45:31] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:45:31] V's and that's after the police, you had to get them out of the department. We talked about

[: 01:45:37

[01:45:52] And his first response was, why did you answer? He had just left me a voicemail. Yeah. Yeah. Cause he did that. And I said, [01:46:00] I answered it because you called me and he started going on about stuff. And then I realized there's something going on. So I got up and I went downstairs and I talked, kept him on the phone for about half hour, 45 minutes now he'd been drinking and a lot.

[: 01:46:14

[01:46:34] I think he's going to kill himself. And I didn't know what to do. So I reached back to my foundation because Ron always says, well, you're not going to church anymore. You've lost your faith. I said, no, I haven't lost my faith. That's. That one thing is solid. I may not follow the protocol. I may still swear from your knowledge again.

[: 01:47:00

[01:47:22] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:47:22] it's a hard role to keep at it until I die.

[: 01:47:24

[01:47:44] Yeah. Most of the time. And you don't know how to handle it and you're not trained and even people who aren't trained . Yeah. Yeah. And you know, if your child has cancer, [01:48:00] there comes a point where you tell them it's okay not to hang on anymore. It's okay to go. If you need to. And, and at that's acceptable, but is mental illness any different?

[: 01:48:17

[01:48:25] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:48:25] I know I I've had these thoughts in my head. I'm going to let you finish. Yeah.

[: 01:48:30

[01:48:43] And a lot of that fight, I will tell you, Jeff is on the spiritual level because, I believe in prayer and Jeff gets him. Yeah, he does. He gets them. And he got them that night. And I

[: 01:48:56

[01:48:57] Liz Hylton: [01:48:57] waiting for him, you know? And , I pulled [01:49:00] every prayer trick. I know. , that night and, , and all of a sudden I got this thought call nine one one.

[: 01:49:09

[01:49:24] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:49:24] Yeah, for sure. a lot of people that might sound like, well, yeah, of course.

[: 01:49:28

[01:49:37]Liz Hylton: [01:49:37] Yeah, Michigan. My first thing was, I'm just going to drive down there and try to fix it myself and what I've realized over the years is I can't fix Geoff.

[: 01:49:47

[01:50:00] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:50:00] life. I don't think he's going to be able to do without God. , mostly because Jeff knows God, he does. Jeff knows that that's where he's going to find that power and define it however you want.

[: 01:50:10

[01:50:24] Liz Hylton: [01:50:24] He's not, he's not. And he's got something he's here for a reason. And he's got a story to tell.

[: 01:50:31

[01:50:36] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:50:36] I have a couple of letters. He wrote me from jail and rehab that I

[: 01:50:38

[01:50:51] But he's got a story. Yeah.

[: 01:50:52

[01:51:12] And it's really just a symbol of our friendship. And it's awesome. I, it, it brings me joy, just thinking about actually being able to do that. And he got busy with work and just life, you know, and I just decided to lean into it and do it and, have it here when he wants to be a part of it.

[: 01:51:29

[01:51:45] Liz Hylton: [01:51:45] anything else hasn't even touched.

[: 01:51:48

[01:52:07] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:52:07] He'll get out of his own way, which is not easy.

[: 01:52:09

[01:52:29] Liz Hylton: [01:52:29] Yeah. Well it's like, even, even when you talk about, you know, being in, um, a church establishment or religious establishment or institution, that's defined a certain way and trying to get out of that. it's similar. What if that's not who I what if I'm not that person anymore? What if I'm not the one who's at church all the time?

[: 01:52:57

[01:53:16] Yeah. And I think the whole truth of what grace really is what God really is. I don't think there's a religion out there who hasn't put even the independence, put God in a box. It's a different box. It may be a bigger box. It may be a whole different box. I mean, there may be things those boxes have in common.

[: 01:53:40

[01:54:06] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:54:06] No, I think the fundamental detail in my mind about heaven that makes none of that stuff really matter is the fact that I think it's probably outside of space and time it's on a level that linear

[: 01:54:15

[01:54:17] Some dimension that isn't there there's too much. There's too many things. I've experiences I've had down in the funeral home, nothing real spooky. Nobody's come back to life. Nobody's waved at me. I haven't seen a ghost ever, ever, and no bodies don't sit up just for fun. No, no, that does not happen.

[: 01:54:39

[01:54:41] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:54:41] that place is not real spooky for having so many

[: 01:54:44

[01:54:48] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:54:48] I got dressed for prom in there.

[: 01:54:49

[01:54:57] So hopefully we've at least impacted them. So [01:55:00] they see it as more of a natural, I mean, it's just something that's going to happen to everybody at some point. So, anyway,

[: 01:55:08

[01:55:17] Like we could talk about this stuff, but it's still kind of hard just because it's

[: 01:55:21

[01:55:40] I don't

[: 01:55:40

[01:55:59] And that's, [01:56:00] that's all it is. It's just, it's the desire to want to let the suffering be done.

[: 01:56:04

[01:56:21] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:56:21] yeah, I've had enough conversations with him when he's down, down, down and enough conversations with him when he's up.

[: 01:56:30

[01:56:48] And that's it.

[: 01:56:50

[01:57:13] I think that's what it's approximately that , and they have support systems and things, but I went down there and took their classes and there was some activity they did one day and I think they meant it more , to give you some insight into, schizophrenia.

[: 01:57:30

[01:58:00] [01:57:59] Jeff Nesbitt: [01:57:59] Yeah. He seems so much healthier now than he was really ever before. Yeah, he

[: 01:58:03

[01:58:12]Jeff Nesbitt: [01:58:12] they want a quick fix,

[: 01:58:14

[01:58:20] I can't, I mean, I can't even describe it, but you got put sort of in the middle of that. And I thought I would be running if that's what is going on in your head. I would be running from that too. And I would want that to stop.

[: 01:58:34

[01:58:40] People can't just see that you're hurting. And so they get into a state where they're worried that people are judging them or, I mean, I've felt , these feelings, myself, that just like that almost as if like, since there's no. Specific reason that you can cite , for your pain. It's almost like you don't deserve it and people will just treat you [01:59:00] like, just suck it up, get over it.

[: 01:59:01

[01:59:03] Liz Hylton: [01:59:03] So a couple things about that. I mean, shame is it's well, just talking about shame that's a whole other podcast, but, , you know, we've got the tweakers out on . I'll just, I don't know if I can say that, but we have the triggers on street and everybody knows who we're talking about and you know, and we've had dispatch on speed dial when things would get bad over there.

[: 01:59:24

[02:00:07] Who's watching out for them. And these are really just people and you don't know what got them to this spot. So I get the sense now when I see them and this is I'm talking about the most down and out people, I see them. And the next thought I have is there's an angel, right? By them walking with them wherever they are, , whatever path they're taken, somebodies watching out for them.

[: 02:00:31

[02:00:51] And I, this is as close to, I don't hear God's voice. Literally. I don't, it's not like that, but it's this [02:01:00] very strong sense of somebody's taking me by the back of the collar, the back of my neck and saying, I got this, this is not your job. I got this. Your job is to love him and keep doing what you're doing.

[: 02:01:17

[02:01:19]Jeff Nesbitt: [02:01:19] Okay. So my mom is. Very very spiritual. She's always had always has been really involved in, in church and just like, it's her, it's her main hobby and calling and everything. Like she's in it for God. And her relationship with God is really important.

[: 02:01:34

[02:01:57] And so the last time we did a podcast, [02:02:00] he, she listened to it and she called me right away. And she said, Hey, I was praying for Jeff. And I just got the, she doesn't hear it literally either, but that I should call you and tell you to tell Jeff to be on the lookout because he's out, he's doing something great.

[: 02:02:14

[02:02:34] And especially if you're trying to do something that takes active work like an artistic pursuit or a new. Career path or a new relationship, anything that takes real hard work and, and you know, is in the right direction for your life. You're going to face those obstacles and it's good and evil. It's a fight of good and evil.

[: 02:02:50

[02:02:55] Liz Hylton: [02:02:55] You can, I mean, the, the fundamentalist will say it's literally [02:03:00] Satan, um, dark forces. I don't know. I don't know because the more I get, the more I, I, I try to define what my faith is and my spirituality is I don't, I don't, I honestly don't know.

[: 02:03:17

[02:03:39] I don't want to worry about if we get to eat tacos when we go to heaven or the streets really made of gold. Yeah. Um, who cares? I mean, like that'd be slippery. Yeah. Um, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's not something I want to rush to find out and I'm perfectly happy to stay down here and [02:04:00] want to stay down here for a long

[: 02:04:02

[02:04:03] You are kind of inspiring me because I always kind of feel like I'm just like half in half out because I really do. I have like you a very strong, fundamental knowledge of my spirituality that came from childhood. Yeah. And I've carried that with me, but I also have a, a very critical mind and I really, really don't trust people.

[: 02:04:26

[02:04:46] Liz Hylton: [02:04:46] jets. The, the tr yeah.

[: 02:04:49

[02:04:53] Jeff Nesbitt: [02:04:53] I also don't want to lead other people astray to be like, Hey yeah, no, don't give your money to Billy Graham because he's going to buy a jet. [02:05:00] Maybe give your money to a poor person, or like, I don't want to lead people away from the church.

[: 02:05:05

[02:05:25] I can't say enough how, what a positive experience that I had in high school during the Jesus people movement during, during all that time. I, I don't know where I'd be to date without that. I don't know what kind of person I'd be that being said. I don't think we have to fit into that box as , as people of faith, as Christians, as whatever.

[: 02:05:50

[02:06:15] Jeff Nesbitt: [02:06:15] Yeah. It's just materialism. Yeah. Yeah.

[: 02:06:19

[02:06:29] No, if that grace comes with conditions and rules and laws, and you have to do this to get this, then it's not grace. Yeah. So I know, I don't know why I was telling that story. I don't know, but it was good, I don't know.

[: 02:06:43

[02:06:47] Jeff Nesbitt: [02:06:47] that's this entire podcast.

[: 02:06:49

[02:06:52] Jeff Nesbitt: [02:06:52] Probably every story that's the way, every time I edit one of these, I'm like, okay, we didn't finish that story, but we started this new one and then never finished it and went onto this new one.

[: 02:06:59

[02:07:06]Liz Hylton: [02:07:06] Wow.

[: 02:07:07

[02:07:13] And I, I would like you to come back cause we touched on a few things that we

[: 02:07:17

[02:07:21] Jeff Nesbitt: [02:07:21] I would really like that.

[: 02:07:22

[02:07:45] What does she reads that I didn't say the exact same thing to her,

[: 02:07:48

[02:07:50]Liz Hylton: [02:07:50] It's the greatest thing ever, but. Dang it, they can suck the life out of you faster almost every time worn out. [02:08:00] And, and right now I sometimes I think, I think, yeah,

[: 02:08:05

[02:08:10] I got 18 years. I mean, I can, I can live this overstressed overworked life for 18 years, but I look at parents like you and my own mom, like maybe a little longer than 18 years. I'm in my thirties. I still depend on my mom for lots. It's never

[: 02:08:26

[02:08:31] Your parents have parents, step parents, whatever. There's a reason it's you and not somebody else. And you may not know exactly , to what extent that's true or not true. But, I believe it, even if it's parents who suck at being parents, there's something that needs to be developed in those kids that you can only get from adversity.

[: 02:08:56